Aiko Tanaka is a Brooklyn-based filmmaker creating powerful imagery for BIPOC creatives through her docuseries I Don’t Camouflage. She’s originally from Tokyo, Japan. Tanaka spent her time between Toronto, Canada, and Tokyo which informed her about cultural awareness of the world around her.

Her college years were spent at Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto, and Rutgers University in New Jersey. There she majored in Social Sciences mainly studying media literacy and race in film. She moved to New York in 2005 where she earned her Masters in Arts and Cultural Management at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn.  

In 2011, Tanaka went on to found the community-based documentary series I Don’t Camouflage. The series highlights the migration and patterns of creatives who dare to stand up.

Watch the full series here

Tanaka currently features Japanese creatives who migrated to New York, to find themselves and comfort in their identity expression. In terms of creatives making space, Tanaka is a champion of building community through the arts.

In terms of BIPOC creatives making space Tanaka is a champion of building community through her powerful imagery and filmmaking. She began an educational program for a non-profit, where she facilitated workshops with international recording artists on issues of immigration and identity.

Tanaka has done amazing work thus far and is so inspirational, to say the least. I found myself enveloped in the diverse experiences of the individuals she highlights through her docuseries.

We should all take a page from Tanaka’s book and uplift the BIPOC voices of those in and outside our communities to create awareness and promote our differences to find community and understanding through powerful imagery.  

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Feeling like an outsider and how to cope

Jade Rogers: I was watching some of your videos. I really loved the way you are giving BIPOC creatives a stage to talk about their experiences leaving their place of origin and coming to the states through powerful imagery.

I was watching the one about Sophie the makeup artist, and how her experience was vastly different. As a multiracial artists and the experiences she faced before moving to New York. Could you talk about getting started in videography and what that journey has been like?

Aiko Tanaka: Thank you for watching.  I had a wonderful experience getting to know Sophie and filming her and her aunt, April Walker. She is a strong, passionate, and powerful woman and I was very inspired by her. I couldn’t believe that she was only 17 years old, she is so mature for her age.

When I started videography I wanted to create content for I Don’t Camouflage (IDC). Using video was the most powerful tool to tell stories. I was able to tell stories of people from marginalized communities who were embracing their individualities.

I couldn’t afford a crew for every shoot so I had to figure out how to do it myself.

– Aiko Tanaka

When I was in  Japan, I felt like an outsider in Canada and an outsider when I came to New York. I didn’t fit in. It led me to struggle with my identity. I am what is called a “Returnee”, which refers to Japanese kids who returned to Japan after having lived abroad for several years. I lived in Canada from 5 to 10-years-old.

My parents used to recommend that I not talk about my life in Canada, because I could be bullied. I began to forget English and it felt like a part of me was disappearing.

Until college, where I met a lot of people who were more open and accepting of me. I started watching foreign films and listening to foreign music so as not to forget my English and learn about other cultures and society.

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Aiko Tanaka uses her craft as a space for Healing and telling the stories of BIPOC creatives through powerful imagery

JR: Did you feel as though building that community was a healing process for you? 

Yes, because when you connect authentically, it heals you. 

– Aiko Tanaka

AT: IDC helped me heal myself. It became my healing journey. I connect with the subject because I can relate with them and sometimes, they might express their feelings and that translates my own feelings  in a way I did not know how to. Which oftentimes brings me to tears. I hope it heals others too.

JR: That is an incredible feeling of understanding and healing through your craft. I would love to go into depth about your process of creating powerful imagery for BIPOC creatives. As well as some more background on how you got to this point in your creative practice.  

AT: In terms of process, I film, direct and edit myself. Since it is just me, I am always thinking about  traveling light, so I fit all my equipment in my suitcase. Having a crew would be nice, but just having myself on set also creates a very intimate dynamic and I think that is special. 

How I got to this point goes back to the day I was working in the music industry as a marketing person. I wore many hats, meeting/networking with artists and industry professionals every day and night. I became good friends with some of  them.  When I first got here to New York, I can admit, I  was a weirdo, as I tried to figure out my identity.

I also faced stereotypes that I didn’t really experience when I was a kid. All the friends around me accepted me for who I was. They treated me like  family.

– Aiko Tanaka

I didn’t have family in New York, but they were my family. I wanted to show people the personal side of these artists, that a lot of people didn’t know about. That’s when I started to record and interview them. 

I did not go to film school and I had to teach myself how to film and edit, but fortunately, I met great people who helped me with my career along the way and IDC led me to different opportunities in the film, TV, and media industry.

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Be Bold… Don’t Blend In

JR: Dope. I love that you used the connections you made to kick start your docuseries. Thinking about your choice of titling for the project, “Camouflage”, it really made me think about visibility, powerful imagery around BIPOC creatives, and that you’re emphasizing this idea of being seen. Can you speak to the decision behind that? 

AT: I Don’t Camouflage means not to blend in, and be who you are. Don’t disguise yourself wherever you go and be vivid. It was important to find a name that is visual, like the camouflage patterns, and something that has layers of meaning to it. So that’s why I chose I Don’t Camouflage.  

JR: Yes. That does have a very visual aspect to it. I enjoy the meaning behind I Don’t Camouflage. It fits the theme of the work you’re making. Also, I noticed that we’re both Pratt Cats, I love hearing about Pratt alumni in the art world and what they are up to. Especially since you got your master’s at Pratt. What was your experience like going to all these different institutions?  

AT: The Arts and Cultural Management program that I was enrolled in at Pratt was only on the weekends. I had the whole weekday to myself and most of my classmates were already working.

So, I built more with the people I met through the non-profit organization I was at during the week. The organization used international hip-hop as a tool for social change. We organized International Hip-Hop festivals and I began an education program for international students. This program had a similar dialogue to IDC. BIPOCs talked about blending in through this educational workshop.

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What does the future look like for I Don’t Camouflage and creating powerful imagery for BIPOC creatives?

JR: Incredible. You were able to accomplish so much during that time. What other events were you able to work on? Also, what’s something you might plan to do beyond videography with this work? 

AT:  I threw an “I Don’t Camouflage” event back in August 2013, sponsored by Mocada Museum. It was hosted by M1 of Dead Prez and it was a music showcase where some of the artists I featured in the interview / docuseries  performed live on stage.

The place was packed. The audience was wearing  patterned outfits, enjoying the performances, doing step and repeat. It was beautiful. I would love to do more interactive events where people can feel unity and celebrate themselves.

I enjoyed the creation of more engaging spaces where people could have an open dialogue about identity issues in the future.

– Aiko Tanaka

JR: Absolutely, I think that’s a crucial factor for sure. You want to be able to reach people on a more personal level that goes beyond surface level interactions.

Building these bonds and creating powerful imagery to foster stronger communities of BIPOC creatives or any type of community really. In terms of, when you worked within the music industry did that in any way inform your practice?  

AT:  I worked in the music industry, as a marketing person after graduating Pratt. Record labels would hire my boss to produce “The Best of” mixtapes for their artists, as a way to promote their official album. The mixtapes were more like an audio documentary  with lots of great sound bites, and I believe it influenced me, come to think of it.

As I was more involved in the business side in music, I wanted to be more hands on in the creative process of the storytelling. That is also another reason why  I started I Don’t Camouflage. 

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When you have the tools to do what you love…

JR: Did you ever use the events you attended to practice your videography work? During that time was your camera always in hand? 

 AT: No, I didn’t have a camera on me. Well, sometimes I would take pictures of the behind the scenes of the events. That wasn’t my role per se. I was always serious about film and media. While I was in college I enrolled in the social sciences but I focused on media literacy.

Which is about race, and more specifically how the Japanese race and culture were depicted in film throughout history and how certain races are depicted in film in general. I was always curious about it, but I didn’t get a chance to learn.

When a camera became more accessible to me, I decided to use that as a tool. 

– Aiko Tanaka

JR: It comes through in your work, the embracing of culture. I am incredibly connected to your work because of that. As a Black woman and thinking about what goes on in my community, I feel a kinship to your films.

In thinking about community and understanding those who have shared experiences with you. Your medium is film and mine, photography. Though I have these deep feelings and, in a way, see myself in the people you interview. Which I think again is why I love the way you’ve just opened this space for conversation. 

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AT: I feel like you know, you’re a photographer and I’m a filmmaker, and we both work behind the scenes.

We all have different perspectives and it is important to share our visions through our lens to the world, now, more than ever.

– Aiko Tanaka

I am happy to hear that you feel kinship to my films. Also, I find that when I feature female and non binary artists, there is a very different energy than when I work with male artists. I feel more empowered. 

JR: Absolutely. Also, just the pure Girl Boss energy that’s circulating right now. It’s always beautiful to see more women in the film industry. I don’t personally know a lot of women filmmakers, but I just love when I find out about them. It’s such a badass job and I really do appreciate you speaking with me about it. You create such beautiful work and powerful imagery around BIPOC creatives. 

AT: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you too. Please keep me posted with your work.

JR: The same to you. I’m looking forward to seeing more from you. 

Watch the full series here

Adrian White is a photographer originally from a small town in North Carolina called Stanton’s Burg. White’s photographic process is one that mainly consists of documentary and portraiture photography.

As he moves back and forth between California and North Carolina he creates phenomenal imagery surrounding memory, family, and history and its relation to the Black experience.  

Moving through his work is very much traveling through a shared experience, our practices meet where White’s use of archival imagery comes into play.

Through his film, ‘White’s Only’ you can view some of the ways White uses his family archives to explore concepts of preservation, and at times loss. Certainly, a film one should spend time with.  

White also has a way of capturing a moment that feels steady and the works that he creates will hold viewers far into the future. He regards his work as a living breathing archive that his decedents will be able to view and interact with. This act of preservation is once more a prominent concept in his practice.  

While speaking with White I felt this overwhelming sense of familiarity. Though it may be our Southern upbringings that made me feel connected to him. Nonetheless, his work calls to mind a quote I came across in 2020, “Black People exist in the future.”

White’s work exists in this space of radical remembrance. The photos we collect as Black people are connected by the oral histories we share, and his work pays homage to that tradition.  

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Working in a new environment

Adrian White: Presently, I’m working on a project here in South Central LA where I do street photography and portraits on the street. Also, when I go home, I always try to document what’s going on in my small town. 

Jade Rodgers: The work that you’re doing in LA, is it random individuals that you’re working with?  

AW: Yes, I started in the Crenshaw and Inglewood area. That’s kind of what I do, I walk up to random people. There are quite a few shrines up for Nipsey Hussle. That’s almost like my base of operations and I branch out from there. 

 JR: How did you get started in photography?  

AW: I went to an HBCU, North Carolina Central University. While I was there, I linked up with one of my homies from Trinidad. His name is REM, and we had a TV show together. I would say that was the start, even though it wasn’t photography, per se, it was video. The TV show was us going around and talking about what was happening on campus. There was a humorous element associated with it. Then from there, I went on to the military. I was a combat photographer, so I document documented everything that the US Navy had going on. I was in Haiti after the earthquake, that huge earthquake. So, I saw a lot of crazy things and travel the world. How I got my start in photography through the military. 

JR: It’s already stressful to be a photographer. In certain situations, especially documentaries. Did you feel as though it was hard to make images at times? Or you just were on orders? And you were doing what was asked? 

AW: They’re hard in the sense that they put you in tough situations sometimes. They’re also telling you what to go out and shoot. So, in that sense, it was easy, but yes, you’re absolutely in tough situations. How would I say it? It taught me how to problem-solve. That’s something that I carry with me now. How can I get into a particular place? How can I document this thing? You know? So, it’s a skill that I’ve carried on to the present day. 

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How Adrian White found photography

JR: What was your draw to fine art photography? After the military did you think this was the best path? Where did you go from there? 

AW: When I got out of the military, I went on to Brooks Institute of Photography. It was a world-renowned institute specifically for technical photography and commercial photography. I was there and I was one of the only Black faces there. One time in my class, one of my professors really challenged me. It was then when I said to myself, there are a lot of black photographers out here doing this. What would I say to the world? What would I communicate to the world? I think that’s when I decided I wanted to be a fine art photographer. I do commercial photography a little bit, but I feel like my focus is mostly on fine art. 

JR: Do you feel as though it’s easier to communicate your thoughts through fine art? 

AW: I created tension in my work, as an extension of my thought process. For me, photography is easier than talking. 

JR: When it came to learning about the history of photography, you’ve already recognized that you were the only black person in this space. Did you feel that the history itself made you want to tell black stories even further?  

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Influence of Black Photographers of the past

AW: I think it was my introduction to Gordon Parks. I started to study Park’s work and I thought that he was a self-made photographer. His work was beautiful. I read a few of the books on him and saw how he just threw himself out there. He told people that he was a great photographer when he didn’t know anything about photography yet. If he could do it, I should be able to do it, too. I really don’t think I figured it out until a little bit later, from my own history.

At least when I first started photography, I was trying to take pretty pictures. I think that’s kind of played out. I tried to figure out a way where I could tell my own story. The deeper I went the more of my own story began to surface. I look at the camera as a weapon or tool. So, I’m always walking around with it. What can I say with this thing that I got in my hand? 

JR: Gordon Parks is also a favorite of mine. Also, in your work especially your use of the archives. I get a sense that some of the people in your photographs are family.

That it’s important to you to highlight that personal story and history. In what ways do you feel like you use the archives? Also how important is that in the work that you share. Versus work that you might do commercially? Also, for family photos do you find that you keep some to yourself? 

AW: The first time I was introduced to photography was through the family photograph. My mom dusted off the family album, and she opened it up. She started to tell stories, because I mean, as photographers, that’s really, really what we are, right? We’re all just storytellers. Now I try to connect it to how can the archives and my contemporary photography work hand in hand. 

That’s how I started that project, down in North Carolina called Pickled Memory, where I put old family photographs in the jars with corn syrup and tried to get my family to interact with them. I’m not just talking about those old family photographs. They tell stories that even contemporary photography can’t duplicate, all the different layers on top of each other. 

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When Dreams become reality

JR: That concept and those photos are beautiful. Pickling a photograph and trying to preserve something where maybe that person or place might not exist anymore. That was just such an intriguing body of work. Could you talk about that project more?  

AW: That project started as a dream. One night, I had had a dream about what if you put photographs inside of a jar, and bury those photographs? When you’re really in touch with your entire process and trying to figure out how am I going to do this? Why am I going to do this? What am I going to do? You come up with some interesting ideas. My family probably looked at me like I was weird a little bit. Put the photograph in a jar and you want us to dig a hole and put them in it?

They did it because they believed in what I was doing. It also turned into this fun thing especially interaction between my nieces, nephew, and my sister. They still talk about it to this day. Burying the photographs in the ground and putting the eggs on top of the photograph. It looks almost like a burial site.  

JR: Watching “White’s Only” and seeing the process of burying was a bit sad for me. When I viewed the film, I was listening to your nieces talking in the video. Asking these questions like, why are we doing this? What is this for? For me, that amplifies the feeling of, we’ve already put the images into a jar. We’re already preserving them for some purpose. Now the aspect of burying that just added another layer for me. Especially the aspect of preservation. I really love your work. I really do. 

AW: Thank you so much. I really appreciated it. 

JR: I was very curious about how you came up with that idea. The dream wasn’t something that you had repetitively or was it a one-off dream? 

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Photographers…Keep a journal and write down all your ideas

It was just a one-time dream.

– Adrian White, Photographer

AW: Though in graduate school I walked around with a journal all the time. When you write down everything. You tend to come up with an idea. If you come up with an idea you should always write it down. It stuck out to me because of that. I still walk around with my journal, but everything is accentuated when you’re in graduate school because you’re just trying to figure things out. I ran with the idea and thought, let’s take these photo photographs to see what that looks like. 

JR: I love and respect the way you focus on black stories. Could you speak about visibility as it relates to blackness and how you engage with the history in the contemporary? I know you’ve made images that exist in the realm of creative activism. I’m curious to know your relationship to these sorts of images. 

AW: I think my images do several things. I feel like I document but a lot of my images focus on my family too. I’m creating more images for the family album. I’m creating a place in history. I also feel like for so long, black people weren’t being shown in galleries. We didn’t see the stories of black people. As I said, Gordon Park was one of the first photographers, the first black photographer, anybody ever told me about. I wanted more representation; I needed more representation. 

Why were photographs that showed pictures of people like my nieces and my nephew and my sister, mom, and dad? Why weren’t they in galleries? It’s all about representation and visibility. That’s the cool thing about the camera, that the camera is all about visibility. I walk around the earth with that camera, I’m showing you what I see. So, it’s almost like an autobiographical journey. Wherever I go, you can see what I see. 

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Working at a Protest…Think about ways to protect your Subjects

JR: Well, your images tell a story, and it’s clear where your focus is. The Black Lives Matter protest images that you sent over. I really love the way you address anonymity and protecting the people that are involved in these protests. Could you talk about what it’s like making images in that space? When do you decide to cover up faces or not?  

AW: I remember the dialogue that was going on at that time. We’re out there on the street and everybody is saying, you can’t show who’s at the protests because the police might come after them. That they could be arrested. I decided to add an extra element to it. By covering up everybody’s faces. The crazy thing is the people that were jumping on the cars and all that a lot of them were white people. Yes, a lot of white people. The black dots on their faces were so you couldn’t really tell who they were.

I remember a conversation that I had at one protest. People would come up to us and basically say, we’ll take care of this part we’re trying to protect y’all. We don’t want you to do the nefarious thing, like, we will take care of y’all, we’ll do that part. A lot of times when I was out there, I would put headphones on, and I would listen to a soundtrack that would get me in a particular space. I felt like that opened my eyes a lot more I was able to see things that I wouldn’t typically see because of the soundtrack that was going on in my head. 

JR: Personally, when I go to protest, I’m usually super attentive to my surroundings. Did you feel as though the music at all hindered your awareness? 

AW: I feel like it heightened my other senses in a weird kind of way. I was paying attention to everything more. Of course, I couldn’t hear things, but I could see better. That was the whole point of me being out there to see. 

JR: I think a lot about the way protests are portrayed in the media. Oftentimes incredibly violent, and people running the street but it’s not always that either. We’re all there for a reason from mourning or simply annoyance and displeasure at the state of things.  

AW: Yes, every protest is different. I’ve been to some violent ones I’ve been shot by rubber bullets, but some are very calm. Some are simply us standing here together. So, every protest is different. It’s kind of weird in that way. I know exactly what you mean. It’s always the negative stuff that is portrayed in the media. 

JR: It’s really frustrating at times though I would love to talk more about your image Sankofa. The woman in the water wearing a mask, I was intrigued by the title because of its meaning but also just how beautiful the image itself is.  

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Creating Photographs in the Present that Reflect the Past

AW: That’s a performance artist that I worked with. Her name is ISIS and was taken off the shore of New York. What we were trying to recreate was the massacre that enslaved Nigerians committed when they were brought over from Africa (Igbo Landing Mass Suicide 1803).

They killed their slave masters, and then they all committed suicide. We went out to the water, and it was very cold it was in the winter. Sankofa is about looking forward to the future but also remembering your past. The two faces that are evident in the image are prominent.

The mask is looking in one direction and her face is looking in the opposite direction. She’s from Rwanda even though we were we were focusing on Nigeria the mask is Nigerian. 

JR: Oh, wow. I’ve never heard that story before. Thank you for teaching me that.  

AW: Yes, they wanted to have control over their lives they didn’t want to be controlled by slave masters. They would prefer to just kill themselves. 

JR: You’re also a photo professor, right? 

AW: Yes, I teach at California Baptist University and Santa Ana College. 

JR: What are some important histories of photography that you feel your students should know about? 

AW: The main thing is that photography is autobiographical in a way that people don’t quite understand. A lot of people just go around making pretty images. I think the stories that we tell are way more important than pretty images. Since we have Instagram now and Facebook, Tik Tok all these platforms have a lot of mimicking and copying. Sometimes you just need to close your eyes and figure out who you are, and what you’re trying to say to the world. I think that’s just more important. 

JR: Yes, absolutely. It’s hard for some when you’re constantly viewing images online. You may start to think, oh, maybe I should be doing that. Then I’ll get this type of recognition. I think you must ask yourself, what are you doing it for?  

AW: Absolutely. I feel like I’m trying to be in conversation with people that aren’t even born yet. More so family members that aren’t even born yet. Especially when I’m not on this earth anymore. I want them to still be able to look at my images. Oh, I didn’t know I had this relative. I didn’t know about this thing that happened here or then. That my uncle moved to California, and he was the professor. He did this and he did that project in South Central LA. These are all things that I want to happen when I’m no longer here. Where I can have this body of work that even though I’m not here, I want my legacy to persist. I want my images to persist. 

JR: I feel like they will. I really do. I’m so drawn to this image titled matriarch. Her powerful gaze and being situated in nature and in all black. I really fell in love with that image when I saw it. Could you talk about what it was like making that and who that is to you? Also thinking about women as being head of households in our community. 

AW: Yeah, I think women have quite a bit of power. That’s my mother. She is a God-fearing woman, who is deeply religious and she’s a mother of the church. We put her in her church clothes, and the photo was taken in our backyard. It’s a body against space and it’s also talking about the history of black people in North Carolina. Which isn’t always that pleasant. I did protest. My mother talked about some of the protests that she was involved in, growing up.

I wanted to make her look powerful. Against that backdrop of the trees, the acres of land that we now have. She certainly looked powerful with that gaze that she’s given me; as I’m looking at her. She’s looking at me. As if to say, yes, I am, who I am. Something else to add to that is, in our front yard. There’s a sign that says 40 acres (about twice the area of Chicago’s Millennium Park) of land for sale.  

JR: That is amazing that you all have land to call your own. Personally, my immediate family hadn’t owned any land until 2015. We still don’t have much, but it’s enough. It’s a great feeling when you and your family can have a space to be. That is a beautiful idea to photograph her in a space. Also, I love the church hat. It reminds me of the days my family and I attended church with our grandmother in Washington D.C. 

AW: Another reason she’s wearing that hat is that she was battling cancer at the time and trying to cover that up as well.  

JR: I’m sorry to hear that, but she looks so beautiful in that photograph I’m glad you were able to capture that moment. Also, I love to hear more about this image of the young boys. (Titled, Four Boys) 

AW: There’s a video installation associated with that project. I was in Harlem when I was at Parsons, right there on Lenox Avenue, and I went to the store, and I got these boys some water guns. I had them shooting at each other. After they finished playing around and I photographed them sitting down. There’s this posture that black men learn at an early age. As if you must communicate that you’re not one to be messed with.

Whether you’re talking about Europeans or talking about outsiders, you got to show people that they can’t mess around with you. There was a lot of posturing going on like the boys are trying to be tough in the image. They did that all on their own. I didn’t even direct them to do it. It’s just this kind of natural thing that happens with young black boys and black men. I mean, you’ve even seen the prison photographs where they try to do the same thing. It’s all about displaying toughness, displaying your dominance. 

JR: Yes, absolutely. I see it. You know, my little brother every day is getting older. I always ask him what are you doing? They’re watching older Black men and men in general. My father has always been one of those men of men. Very macho, and the men the young boys are looking to are from a different era. I see it in that photo, and especially the boy in the middle.  

JR: What projects are you currently working on? Things that you might hope to create in the future.  

AW: I’m trying to get deep into the project here in South Central LA. The biggest thing right now is that I’m a black man from North Carolina. When I’m here, I’m black but I’m considered an outsider. I didn’t grow up in Inglewood, Crenshaw, or South-Central LA. 

I’m trying to figure out diverse ways to infiltrate the community. I know that sounds like a weird word choice. Though to create more images that’s what I need to do. So, I can tell more stories. There’s nothing nefarious about that but I want to tell the stories of black people.

To tell stories of people that look like me. A lot of times people will say they can tell when you’re not from their areas. Then they’re questioning what you’re doing here bro? Or why do you want to take photos of me? That’s the biggest thing right now. 

JR: Yes, that is tough. I relate to that so much because I was raised in Georgia. I moved back to Maryland where I was born, and a lot of people thought I wasn’t from there or they could tell. It’s tough to integrate into a community and sometimes to really connect with that community if you aren’t rooter there in some way. Though I always believe it’s important to try and build a community as you make work. It can be challenging. 

AW: You walk around with the camera; talking to people. That’s how you start to tear down some of these walls. After a while, they know who you are.  

JR: Could you talk about these archival images that you have here? What is their relationship to your work? 

AW: I took this class when I was in graduate school called History, Memory, and Trauma. One of the things that I gleaned from that class was how you need to really talk to people while they’re still here on Earth. I feel as though those archival images can be a launching point. If I show a photograph of something or play a song and it makes people talk about their memories.

I saw a photograph and my brother might say, oh, I remember this happened right here. Then my sister might have a completely different story and I’d have a completely different story. It’s almost like we’re comparing notes in a way. That’s one of the beautiful things about those archival images. It shows how perspectival memory is. How I remember isn’t the way that someone else will remember. Which gets us to talk to one another and reminisce  

JR: Absolutely. The archival image as an entry point to memory and history is an important aspect of the photograph. I love that you brought that up and you should certainly add that to your journal if you haven’t already. 

AW: Oh, for sure. I really appreciate you interviewing me. There’s this song called grandma’s hands. Have you ever heard of this before? 

JR: No, I haven’t actually.  

AW: It’s by Bill Withers. In a lot of ways that song works kind of like an archival image. I sent that song to my family’s group chat, and we just began telling stories about our grandmother who passed away years ago. Where I mean, it’s this kind of beautiful, archival image and music that works hand in hand.  

 JR: I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. I saw your photos previously and I really want to emphasize this because the way you work with your family archive is beautiful. Thank you again, when I saw your work, I knew I had to hear more about it.  

Cheryl Fox’s work features some of the biggest ICONS in Hip Hop, like that of Shawn “Jay Z” Carter, Snoop, Sean “Diddy” Combs, Pharrell Williams, and more. Fox’s connections to the artists runs deeper than commissioned works as some of these individuals are friends who she has met through word of mouth. 

Fox is an advocate of artists knowing their rights. The importance of cultivating a community is strong in her work but also, learning the business behind photography so that she can, and has, maintained a career without representation.  

Cheryl Fox is a Photographer from New Jersey who currently lives and works in California. Fox has been in Cali for about 11 years and has no intentions of leaving anytime soon.

She got started in photography through her father but also took classes in college where she learned to develop film. Cheryl began her college education at the HBCU, Hampton University in Virginia, but later went on to hone her skills at the School of Visual arts in NYC.

Although the work lives in the realm of Fine Art, Fox has found a way to push beyond the boundaries and create her own space for making work. Through her personal relationships, she has had opportunities to work for businesses like HBO, Showtime Key Art, obtained Magazine covers, album packaging, and Ad campaigns.

In terms of authenticity and beauty, I would say Fox has done an amazing job of cultivating a path she can call her own. As a Black woman in this industry, she is a shining example of what faith and hard work can produce.

She has also published a coffee table book titled, “Art of a GUEST PASS,” which exists as a musical memoir of images never before seen of Fox’s personal lifestyle.  

Fox will be dropping her first NFT collection in collaboration with Guilty by Association on Foundation. Which is a creative playground for artists, curators, and collectors who are seeking to experience the new creative economy.

See the NFT collection here.

NFTs have taken the art industry by storm, these non-fungible tokens which are certificates of ownership of a digital product have given power back to creatives.

Allowing them to reach audiences worldwide and share their work with people who may not have otherwise known of their presence in the industry.

Guilty By Association (GBA) helped Fox and does help other underrepresented artists by supplying them the tools to present their physical and digital works to new audiences.

This collaboration in many ways was the perfect platform for Fox to give space to the images that she holds dear to her heart. Such an important relationship to have as a creative to your work.  

This NFT collection is made up of twelve minted images titled “SMOKE”. The drop is a part of her ongoing series of works that will lead up to Hip Hop’s 50^th Anniversary in 2023.

A drop you don’t want to miss. I had the pleasure of speaking with Fox about her photographic journey and what it’s like to be a non-represented creative making this type of work.  

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Who is Cheryl Fox?

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Jade Rodgers: How did you get started in the photo industry?  

Cheryl Fox: I got started in photography, really through my father, but also, I took a darkroom class and learned to develop film. I thought it was developing that I loved. Part of the class, obviously, is that you must take pictures in order to develop.

I loved seeing the images come to life in the lab and being in the darkroom. Then I started to give the photos away, and people would often say, “Oh my god your photography is so good.” I realized that maybe it’s photography that I love and not just the darkroom. I just started taking more pictures and gifting them. 

When I went back to school, I attended the School of Visual Arts and learned lighting and how to work with a creative team. I thought to myself, oh my goodness, these photographs that I’m taking look like something out of a magazine. From there, I went on to build my own darkroom in my house. Even now I have my own in-home studio…

“I’ve gone through so many distinct phases.”  

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

I went from film to digital, which was not a good ride, because I love film, but then the world changed like it always does. My life changed as well, and I went through a divorce. I was like, if I want to continue to shoot as often then I’m going to have to use this digital thing. You know, film photography is expensive. 

JR: That has always been my dream to own my own studio, especially to develop film. The fact that you were able to realize that is so dope. I love that.  

CF: Oh, good. Yes, you can do it. 

JR: That’s the goal. I mean, I’ve already got my chemicals, I just need an actual physical space.  

CF: Mine was a little corner of my basement that I had built out in my home at the time. I had a handyman come in and build a space that’s about the size of a walk-in closet. I’m not sure where you are, but spaces are tight everywhere.  

JR: They certainly are, and I know it’s going to happen it’s just a matter of having the space right.  

CF: You’ve already envisioned it and that’s the half of it really, is seeing it.  

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Refining her skills

JR: I was curious about your background in fine art. Also, your relationship to the categorizing of artists because I feel like your work can exist in several different spaces. What was that experience like going back to school?  

CF: I went back to school specifically to learn about lighting and all that. Though originally while I was at Hampton University, and then to Kean University.

I have my BA in Sociology and I don’t have one in fine arts. On the other hand, my daughter, got her Bachelor of Fine Arts, in photography from the Fashion Institute of Technology. She was like, ‘oh, I’m going to major in photography.’ I was like, ‘Oh, that’s a layup.’ Do you know what I mean? I never even thought about it when I was in school, that that was something that you could major in. It wasn’t until I went back to learn. 

JR: I get that. Growing up I thought the same thing. I went to college initially for computer science. They don’t often push us towards the arts. The first advice I was given was that if I’m going to be an artist’s I’m going to struggle and that it was hard. I thought that back then, but I sort of feel like it was a lie. It was almost discouraging for me. Simply because I never saw my art as something I could make a living off.  

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Finding your lane as a photographer

CF: It’s certainly not a lie, because my entire existence as a photographer in ways, and without representation was hard. I don’t have representation and everything that I’ve shot was word of mouth.  

 JR: Even your work, The Art of a Guest Pass?  

CF: None of that was commissioned. That’s just walking through life. So, for instance, Art of a Guest Pass, I named it that and put this collection together of my music photography.

I named it several things, it’s been the rock and roll of hip hop. I was trying to figure out how to present this body of work.

It was funny because a friend of a friend was at my house. I was working on the computer, and she was laying down on the couch. She said, you know, looking around my house, she was like, you should do a book.

I said, Yeah, I’m working on it. I want to do a kid’s book, and I want to do a book on sports, and I want to do all these things. She was like, you should do a music book. What are you doing with all these pictures? Other than having them on your wall?  

 I have a gallery right now in my house. I just need a bigger house or a bigger gallery because I’ve got even bigger prints. By the same token, I wasn’t even thinking about it, right here in my house is the court. Right?

So, I’m like, ‘Oh, wow, a music book.’ Then the pictures are very personal to me. I came up in an industry years ago, where it was Puff, and Jay Z. Beyond that, it was a little bit of Pharrell. Everybody was just grinding and working, and we would vacation together, spend holidays, go to The Hamptons for the summer, and play ball.

We came up in a way creating culture.

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

CF: While I was there years ago, I had done publicity. I stopped doing publicity and thought to myself what am I going to do? I don’t want to just sit here, so I started taking pictures while I was hanging out over the summer. At some of my friend’s birthday parties I would take pictures. Then all of a sudden these guys became big celebrities.  

 Meanwhile, I continue to take pictures, but it’s just me, my kids would go away. Ever since we got divorced and I moved to California the deal was that they would spend holidays with their father who was still in New Jersey.

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So, every Christmas I would spend at the Staples Center watching the game pretty much by myself or whoever I could get to go with me because it’s Christmas Day, right? I have this picture of Kobe Bryant and LeBron from that Christmas day. 

That’s I guess, 11 years old now, but it is an insane image for so many distinct reasons. Both their hands are down the balls extended in the air. Then Kobe and LeBron spoke to each other just before Kobe passed and I don’t know, it’s special for so many reasons. What do I do with that?

I’m photographing Puff, and we’re at clubs, birthday parties four in the morning. I got great pictures, but what do I do with that?

I can’t just give those to a magazine or somebody that doesn’t care about my culture, and my people.

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

They could extort it and just like, do whatever, so I just held onto those images. Or gave them away as gifts, and I would just hold them. 

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Thinking outside of the machine

JR: That’s an interesting perspective to have about your images. When we think about accessibility and galleries, especially as Black creatives. Listening to the ways in which these moments are incredibly intimate for you with people you love and value.

How could institutions understand that when they only see it as a commodity. They’re thinking, oh that’s a famous person it would do numbers. You’re thinking outside of that machine and doing it within your means. I think that is just another reason that I love the work you do so much.  

CF: Thank you, Jade. I mean, and for me, as an artist, I didn’t know.

Protect your work, even a picture on Instagram, because somebody is going to grab it, run with it, put their tag on it. 

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

They’re never going to know that it was even my image. Who wants that? No, thank you. Though I would go into galleries because I love images, no matter what. Even before I started to make my own and blow them up. I would always go to West Fourth Street, buy jazz images and frame them and I always had images in my home. 

Even when I was younger, so I knew there had to be a way somewhere in there. When I would go to the galleries, it was a lot of rock and roll photographs, of the white rock and roll guys. 

Rock and roll at that point wasn’t America’s music anymore. It was Hip Hop. Thinking about The Doors and the Beatles and Rolling Stone. I had the hip hop version of these iconic beings. This one gallery, in particular, the Morrison hotel gallery is big on images like that. 

I’d always wanted to show work in that gallery. It used to be on Prince Street, and it was literally as big as a walk-in closet. I thought to myself I should have one picture on the wall in here. I wanted my work to be seen because outside my friends are asking for my work but who else is seeing it?

Finally, I had another gallery, Mouche that represented my work for many years here in Beverly Hills. Unfortunately, unless I did an exhibit, I didn’t get my name on the wall or my image up. 

They’d have two walls of Terry O’Neill’s work, or a wall with Kirkland’s work and I’m thinking you know, can I get a corner? Can I get an image on the wall? My daughter came to me and said, Mom, you have to get another gallery.  

Morrison hotel gallery onboarded me at the beginning of 2020. Literally right before everything shut down. I was so happy, and they’ve been selling prints and with them, it’s 50/50. I make the print and bring it over to them and boom, I never know who my patron is and can never say thank you.

All I can do is sign it and turn it over. That’s why I love the blockchain because the NFT world is like Fine Art Meets cryptocurrency and it’s on a worldwide gallery.

Documented, it’s immortalized forever.

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

That image is now forever credited to me as the creator no matter where it goes, and the world can see it now and it’s protected. I’m like this is fucking insanity. Excuse My French but this is I couldn’t have dreamed anything this amazing.  

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The struggle…

JR: That’s incredible, and you know I’m just gaining an understanding of what the Blockchain can be utilized for. I recently sold my first NFT and I felt empowered by that. I’ve personally tried to sell prints in the past. I’m currently a part of a print sale with Diversify photo, that’s as you mentioned a 50/50 split with the artists.

Though that feeling of not knowing who bought the work, and not being able to thank them is a weird thing for me. I don’t know the types of audiences I’m reaching. It’s sort of a disconnect for me, and I believe our medium is about community and it is about making deeper connections.  

CF: That’s why it is a struggle, and for me, before last week it’s been a gamble. I mean you get a big check, and it takes you a while to get there. It’s not something that is consistently moving every day. Though you’re still young, you don’t have two kids and a divorce. Though it really might not be a struggle for you because you’re already selling.  

JR: It might not, though in terms of financials, I’ll be honest, I am at times. I’ve always been the type of person that just went with the flow. I realized I have a weird relationship with photography these days. Don’t get me wrong, I still love photography, but I think it has a lot to do with the type of work I make.  

CF: I didn’t realize you were a photographer.  

JR: (Laugh) Yeah, I move between a few mediums, but photography and writing mainly. Kulture Hub gave me that opportunity to really explore writing more deeply.  

CF: Oh, you’re like me Jade, my favorite forms of expression are with my eyes and my hands. I like to write too. I write different stories and things.  

JR: Same, I write stories as well, but I don’t show them to anybody.  

CF: Exactly. You know, I mean, you got to hold it close to the chest. We’re still exercising our talent; you know what I mean? Just because nobody else sees it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. 

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Wear Entitled

JR: Exactly. Now, I saw that you had a clothing brand, Wear Entitled, can you talk about how that came about? 

CF: Wear Entitled came about because I wanted to, like I mentioned before, I wanted my work to be seen by people. I wasn’t sure how to do that in the past, with galleries.

My daughter was in school and was also working for brands like Kith and Virgil Abloh at Off White. Her take on street fashion was important to me. She said, Mom, there are people making tons of money off their images with clothes and their images are nowhere near as hot as yours. You’ve got to get involved.

I tried to figure out a way, and didn’t want to do t-shirts, sweatshirts, but thought a jacket would be a nice start. Making some sample jackets I wasn’t sure about sizing. I just knew I wanted the images on the backs of the jackets.

At the time I wanted them to be in Barney’s, Max Fields, or what I thought was the right store. I never made that happen, but I turned around and went to an online method. There was a demand in that, and the world was changing around me by the time, I figured it out.  

I realized I had to hold off on that, I wanted to actualize it and so I started doing a few custom pieces. It was around Puffs’ birthday, and it was difficult because it’s hard sometimes to get celebrities, or men with money, women who have everything, something.

I thought to myself I’ll make a robe, and so I made a couple. As special custom gifts, and I did one for Puff and one for LL Cool J and I wanted to keep it going. 

I’m not a fashion person, if it’s an image great. I know what to do. It’s a matter of what image and what to do with it in fashion. If I could have anyone creative directly on that work, it would be Pharrell Williams. I know that he would be helpful in making that happen for real.  

JR: Even if you don’t feel like a fashion person, I can tell you know what you might want at least. You have the images and can play with them and experiment. I could see your work on a Puffer coat and the image or even part of your image is the overall print. I feel like that would be dope to see your work in that way.  

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CF: I’ll think about it and I’m not sure which company. Maybe Alpha Industries? Those green puffer jackets. I’m not a fashion girl. That’s why I would need somebody that understands, the style of clothes, the materials, etc.

Thank you though. I’d love to do jackets too, but I need help. Maybe I could bring in someone from that industry. Someone who at the end of the day they really have their understanding in that area and knows what they’re doing.  

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Cheryl Fox drops her genesis NFT collection “SMOKE” on Foundation

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JR: Absolutely, someone who is experienced. Also, about your NFT collection drop. How did you get together with Guilty by Association? What was the planning behind that?  

CF: God brought us together. I’m so happy about that because I’ve been looking for someone to help me in the NFT space ever since I heard about them. I want to say back in February.

I did a lot of research and for every person, I met, pretty much I’ll ask, “have you heard about NFTs?” It’s a mixed bag where some have, and some haven’t. One of my very long-time friends, whose kids are best friends with my kid, and I went to college with them. That’s just how close we are, and so we were discussing NFTs, and she said to me that sounds like what Derek is doing.

Derek is one of the partners of GBA and he’s also her cousin. I’ve known him for years, but Derek is like that cousin that’s around, but you only see him every five years or so.

I try to connect with him, but we don’t, and I come back to LA and couple of weeks later. My friend connects us and everything in that first call that he said, is what happened within the week. It became a reality and a month later, I’m going to market and we’re going to drop it.  

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A leap of faith…

Since February I had been talking to people who would tell me they’re taking me to market, or I’m representing all your NFTs. I said, slow down, let’s just get one moving and there were so many people.

This woman was cursing out another woman I had never even met with. I thought you know slavery is over, right boo, you don’t own me. Also, no deals have been made.

Though after speaking to Derek, everything he said happened at once. I felt so blessed and that’s why I say it’s God. Derek was talking to his cousin at the same time looking for an artist. I was looking for help and she was able to connect us. I passionately believe that what you’re seeking is seeking you.  

Even before when I went to New York, I met Claude and VSN. I met with Sotheby’s on that trip. I sat with a lot of people about NFTs. When I came back before I met Derek, I made a whole pdf of what I thought I needed to make the book a token. I was going to sell that as an NFT.

I finally had a community and understanding of all the elements needed to launch an NFT collection. 

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

It’s not just the art, you have to have community, and the marketplace on your side. Once I put that together I realized Derek was everything that I put in that PDF. He suggested Foundation and said we’re going to sell all these images at one time. 

JR: What was the choice behind Foundations and not other platforms like Rarible or OpenSea?  

CF: He mentioned OpenSea, but I think it was because his partner Karen is from the New Museum and she’s an authentic Art Girl. So is Derek and they come from an authentic background. 

I feel as though because my work is already sold in Fine Art Galleries. Going with an art focused platform sounded like the most sense. The people that buy fine art are going to want to buy my work. OpenSea and Rarible are more for everyone; I feel like I would be lost in the open sea.  

JR: Interesting I didn’t know that about the Foundation platform, it’s important to think about the nitty gritty.  

CF: Yeah, and I was concerned about people being able to find my work, especially those who like to collect art or photographs. At the time memes and profile pictures were the main thing, and I asked myself are they even doing photography?

I also thought that everything had to be animated. It’s like you have these digital assets but now you have to animate them, or so I thought. When I met with Sotheby’s they told me no you don’t have to do anything to it.

Your RAW file is an asset, and so if I scanned a negative or created a digital file, that’s my asset and it doesn’t have to be touched. 

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

JR: I was looking at the images you have available for the collection, and I noticed that you did end up animating some of them. What was the choice behind animating some over others? More specifically thinking about the Jay Z image with the fire. 

CF: Honestly, I like the animation. May because I’ve sat with these images and had them for song long that I’ve seen them. I thought it would be fun to animate more. My agent Karen (GBA), I essentially followed her lead as the creative in that space.

We played with a couple and ended up animating three. The one of Jay Z, Snoop, and Almighty Jay. I had one contact of Jay Z with the fire behind him, but his eyes were closed. So, I had to find another image and I knew I had one. I dug deep into the chest and pulled that one out. Animating the flames helped me bring that image back to life.  

JR: The fact that you can also use the NFT space to revisit old work and reinvent it. It’s nice to see your work in new ways and it evolves over time that’s a great feeling as an artist.  

CF: That was the beauty of it, that I found in the darkroom at first. How an image just all of a sudden appears, it was amazing to see the images come to life. This is a whole other version of that life. I could make the smoke in one image move and the rainfall in another, it’s fun.

The NFT space makes it light, and you have the freedom to really create.  

-Cheryl Fox, Photographer

JR: Absolutely, I can see that in the choice of images. They are fun and exciting photographs. Could you speak more about the image titled Three Musketeers? 

CF: If there’s anyone that you’d want to smoke with, it’s them three. That’s all smoker’s dream, right? I was shadowing Snoop for a project he was doing.

He had all the boys, and Wiz Khalifa and Seth Rogen were in the trailer just hanging out. I was there and another photographer because I feel like I’ve seen a lot of the photographs from that day run. I kept mine and never really ran them because again I wanted to hold them close.

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While photographing them I was trying to get in front because of the way they were standing. I got on top of this countertop and I’m only 115 lb. 5’2. I crunched up into the corner to get that side angle.

All three of them are beautiful, wonderful spirits. I’m not sure if it’s because they smoked so much weed, but it was a good day in the neighborhood over there.

Then my son was like, ‘Mom, that picture has to be an NFT.’ Then Derek agreed, but it was really a great moment. When I went to a movie premiere, I’d seen Seth and was like, I have a sick picture of you and the boys. He was like yes; I think I’ve seen it before. I told him no you probably saw the other versions. 

JR: This is going to be an amazing drop; the collection is amazing, and I can already see it.  

CF: Thank you, I’m praying that it is. Sometimes I can’t even sleep then I’m like I have to get some rest. Wait how was your drop? Where did you mint it? 

JR: I used the platform Voice. I’d previously done an interview with a portrait photographer named Sasha Stavila and he told me about Voice. I figured I would check it out and I looked into the platform and some of the other ones.

So, I took an image from my project CRWN, which is about Black hair care practices as a sight of Black joy and rest. I made that work during 2020 it’s an incredibly important project for me and reflects my experience during that year.

All the loss of life, I really felt like I needed to find a space within our culture and our community to just breathe. I put an image I made using scan photography up on the 9^th and it was sold on the 10^th. It was an incredible feeling and I’m thankful to the person who bought it.  

CF: That is incredible, and it was a one of one?  

JR: Yes, it was. 

CF: I love that. So, you said Voice? Does that platform let you bid on things or how does it work? 

JR: You have a choice to set a fixed price or bid. You also get 20% back from resells. I sold mine for $500. They’re still in beta but I really like that platform personally.  

CF: Well, that’s good I used to only get 10%.  

JR: I know Rarible gives you the choice to set the percent, I think the range is 0-50% which is a nice option. 

CF: I didn’t know that. I thought it was always 10%. I didn’t even know you could.  

JR: I just found out not too long ago about that myself. Yesterday I was helping a friend mint his first collection and we noticed the choice. I thought that was dope for sure. 

CF: I suppose it varies per platform. I’m curious about the 50/50 split once it hits the market and resells like the marketplace doesn’t get paid again? I wonder about that, but the creator gets a part. 

JR: Well, you know I’m curious about that now too. I was in a Twitter Space earlier this morning and before we got on the call actually. It’s called Black AF on the Blockchain hosted by @shawntelco.

That space was interesting in the way they were talking about NFTs and just helping spread information to Black creators. Some spoke about their struggles outside the NFT space, and others talked about how much it benefited.

Also, just the importance of building community and marketing before you release a drop. All sorts of dope information are being spread amongst creatives. This community was also really willing to support other artists in helping share their work, etc. I was beautiful I was sort of just listening and feeling extremely optimistic about the future of the art industry really.  

CF: Optimism is what the world needs right now. I’m going to have to go find Black AF on the Blockchain because I’m always looking for all the folks and photographers in this space.  

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Cheryl Fox speaks on protecting your digital assets

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JR: Yes, I think Twitter and Discord are the hubs for these sorts of spaces in terms of marketing and community building. 

CF: Twitter is everything. I’m barely on Instagram anymore. I’m much more interested in what’s happening on Twitter than on Instagram. I’ve had a Twitter since 2009 and I made my first post only a month ago. I never knew how to use Twitter and then the industry uses it, so I have to learn. I used to push posts over there, but it doesn’t really translate. 

JR: Yeah, I’ve been on Twitter since 2011 and it’s kind of weird because Instagram, we’re photographers and it’s supposed to be a photo-based app. It doesn’t really do so well in that regard. 

CF: I enjoyed it for a while and then it turned into a business-driven app. Then my kids were like stop posting pictures of us nobody wants to see your kids. I told them everybody wants to see my kids. She’s like you need to be posting your artwork.

Honestly, I felt that I couldn’t because they’ll steal it. Then half of the portraits I make I have to wait for them to use it because if it’s all over my Instagram then they can’t use it the way they want to. I figured it out I can update the portraiture a year after I take the picture. I’m like, if you didn’t use it by now, guys. It’s gone. I could put it on my website.  

JR: In this era, it does feel like we have to keep a presence on social media. Sometimes folks just post to post things. If you’re posting your work and someone says oh this is dope work, they take a screenshot it’s theirs now.  

CF: It upsets me because I have a large extended family and some of them are well known. If I post a picture of the kids then suddenly, I see another website using it with someone else’s tag on it. It upsets me. My daughter was telling me to just say thank you for supporting my work.

Then every time someone did it, I’d have to comment on that. Though I’m conflicted because it’s like take your tag of it. One time someone I gave an image to someone, and they gave it to another person to make a jacket with. Knowing good and well that I have a wearable art collection that they could have asked me to make for them.

When I sent a cease-and-desist letter to the person making the jacket, the person I knew was like, how dare you reach out to them without reaching out to me to ask me.

Really? How about how dare you send my picture to them and have them make a jacket with it? Knowing good and well that, that was my photograph. Now you want me to reach out to you about it. Get out of here. So that’s why I keep my images close to the chest. 

JR: That’s a crazy feeling. I also experienced a run in with a photographer who tried to steal literally my RAW files. We weren’t even hired to photograph the event we were at. It was just photographing Carnival in Baltimore for fun.

I had my camera, and he had his, but my battery died, and I didn’t have an extra. He told me it was fine for me to use his extra and so I put my SD card in his camera and kept photographing.

Then at the end of the night, he tried to say all the images I took with his camera belonged to him. I was like no way, and I’m not usually the type to call anyone’s art bad but his photos were sort of bad.

When he was busy, I went and downloaded all my photographs onto my hard drive removed them, and then gave him his camera equipment back. At the moment I was so angry.  

CF: That’s ridiculous.

Now that we know our files are worth so much it’s even more important to protect them.  

– Cheryl Fox, Photographer

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JR: I completely agree with that, we have to protect our work. Though I would love to hear any words of wisdom for up and coming photographers in the field. 

CF: Other than to keep shooting and keep shooting. The main advice I’d give is to learn the business of photography at the earliest stage possible. Know your rights and when you get that contract to know what you’re signing off on.

Understand usage and where you make the most of your money and know that a buyout, you still retain your own copyrights. You always want to be able to hold your copyrights for your own personal benefit. Then no matter what you can always sell your art because you own it. The biggest thing I’d say is to learn the business while you continue to shoot.  

JR: What’s crazy is in my 3 years at Pratt, I don’t think we’ve ever talked about the business side of photography.  

CF: Many people don’t know and when you get out and don’t have an agent or a rep you’re literally screwed halfway. The business aspect is everything that you need to know. People will try to take advantage of you.  

JR: I really appreciate that, and I know a lot of others will too. 

CF: Absolutely, you’re welcome I appreciate you Jade and I hope you enjoy your holidays.  

JR: Same to you Cheryl thank you for your time. 

Al J Thompson is a photographer who is originally from Jamaica. He migrated to the US in 1996. Thompson began his photographic career in 2007.

He was an assistant helping other photographers create their photo projects. From then on Thompson began working in portraiture, lifestyle, and fashion photography. Over time his work morphed into photojournalism and, and documentary photography. 

Thompson’s work situates itself in many photographic categories but reminds me of that of Roy Decaravas’s work in the way his work tells a story.

Each image holds its own weight amongst his projects. You’ll find that Thompson’s works are not only captivating and careful but inspiring to view.

He is an intellectual photographer who makes work beyond the common narratives.

A photographic life between art and activism

Jade Rodgers: In what ways do you feel your work resides between art and activism?

Al J Thompson: Art and activism, they both work side, side by side. I’m at the point where I can’t differentiate between photography and art. Actually, I believe photography is a form of art.

Even if you’re a photojournalist, that’s also a form of art. Personally, the day that I took up a camera to photograph my community and things that reflect who I am as a person. I feel as if that in itself is activism. Activism in the way that I try to bring that forthright to the public, and have them understand what I feel at that given moment.

Whatever it is that I do, I do it from a humanitarianism point of view. With that comes art as well. That in itself, there’s a back and forth conversation between the two, actually, and it’s pretty fun.

JR: How did you get into journalism? 

AJT: I will say that most of my jobs have been through word of mouth, from one editor to the next. I have a few editor friends and a lot of people found my work through Instagram.

Which is one of the main platforms that I currently utilize. I say currently because I’m on the brink of moving on from Instagram, actually. I’ve always believed in the idea of word of mouth, and because that’s more powerful than any form of advertisement anyway.

JR: Often you find that young photographers struggle with that. Some don’t have that network or sense of networking abilities. The uncertainty of being an artist, so some may be more comfortable with the idea of working for a company long-term.

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How to Navigate Opportunities

AJT: It is a struggle for me because most of the time I utilize my stories to tell my story. While that may be entertaining for some, for me, I take it seriously.

“Whatever I think, is whatever I’ll output into the ether.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

Most people have, I say most people, but like, a lot more people actually read my stories and then check out my posts on Instagram. So I have these dialogues in the background.

Every now and then I’ll share certain things to say ‘Hey, listen, this person says this.’ So it is almost like I’m able to push the envelope in a different way. That’s why I brought up stories because I feel like that’s one of the platforms where people get connected. I think a lot of people found a lot of truths, through my stories, and they connected very well.

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Al J Thompson talks about the Omar & Abdullah’s photography project

JR: I think yeah, that’s definitely a good way to utilize the space. To get people looking at your work, but then also viewing the deeper aspects of it. Having a dialogue to get people engaged. Also, I was thinking about your work Omar & Abdullah’s.

AJT: Yeah, yeah. It’s so funny how you brought that up. That was pretty fun.

JR: Yeah, I saw that you picked two of the images that I was actually most drawn to. The image of the older gentleman standing in front of this brick wall. It reminded me of something that I’ve seen, in Roy DeCravas’ work, the blacks, and your tonal range is really beautiful. How did that project come about?

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Creating the work in safe spaces

AJT: Yeah, the funny thing about three years ago, a buddy of mine invited me and several other friends to Atlantic City. He loves gambling and is into poker, me not so much, actually not at all.

Anyway, we went for the weekend, which is what we do on a yearly basis. While there, I decided to walk around the city, and it is pretty dilapidated. It’s not as nice as I had originally thought. So, for me, anything that speaks to me in various ways, emotionally at least I’ll want to get to know more about it and then photograph it.

I was passing by photographing the streets and this gentleman just ran out of this barbershop. He saw me and he called me over and said, “ ‘Oh, your photographer? A professional photographer?’ I said, yeah. He says, ‘Can you come in for a second? Would you mind photographing us?’ Then I went in and in my head, I was thinking, oh, hell yeah.

I went in and there were a lot of different characters there. Dads with their sons and barbers just doing their thing. I said, ‘Listen, what I’m going to do is photograph all you guys. Then I’ll send it to someone for them to share with you guys.’ So that’s what I did.

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When your creations come full circle

AJT: I waited for the older gentleman to come out. He actually wasn’t a barber at that time. What he did do was shine shoes. I went through an entire roll of 120 film.

I got the contact information and emailed the photos, but they ended up not receiving them. Things got lost in translation, it seems as if they’re not really into emails. I wish they had gotten that at some point. Maybe I’ll do that tomorrow because tomorrow morning 15 of us are heading back to Atlantic City.

JR: Oh, wow that’s full circle. I was drawn to it all because images taken in those spaces like a salon, or a barbershop are sacred spaces to me.

AJT: Absolutely, this is a space where you have intimate conversations. You have conversations about football or basketball and other things.

“This is Afro-American culture if you want to see what the community is, you go inside of spaces like a barbershop.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

JR: Absolutely and those were beautiful images. Also, that young boy’s gaze was so intense.

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Al J Thompson tells us a secret of photography

AJT: I don’t remember the photographer that actually pointed it out several years ago. I was watching some sort of documentary. A mini-series on a particular photographer. He was showing his portfolio and he said, “Once your subject contains this striking, powerful view in the eyes, you don’t need to work for your photo.”

“You just photograph those eyes, that’s all you need.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

That’s one of the secrets about some of these things, because you have these faces, and they’re very interesting with really beautiful characters. The sitters characteristics hold certain elements and it drives home that point of the various endless boundaries of the face.

Faces more often than not can tell a story with the eyes. Even when you’re older as well if you’re 60, 70, or 80 years old, man or woman. You see those landmarks within the faces and the scars as well, those are stories. Those are interesting stories and you don’t need to work too hard to photograph that, because it’s just right there staring at you.

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The migration to a new world

JR: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. So moving to New York, from Jamaica, did you find that the creative community in Spring Valley? What is that like for you? Because I know it’s important as an artist to have that kind of community. 

AJT: Well, when I moved here, I left my dad, my two brothers, and my grandmother, those who I grew up with, I left them in 96. I used to visit here every so often anyway, and then I settled down.

There was nothing creative and I wasn’t even thinking about art. At the time, when I moved to LA, I was just thinking about going to school, graduating, and then I’m going to get a really nice job and have opportunities.

I’m going to send money back home, and then I’m going to eventually move back to Jamaica.  That was the plan. This is kind of the plan for most immigrants that moved to the United States.

Then things changed, I started to miss home as well. That was depressing for me and it took a while for me to actually embed myself within the community. I met one or two new friends and I’m trying to figure out my way around, but I couldn’t.

Eventually, just growing up through high school I started rapping with my Jamaican accent, and then friends told me ‘Oh you should add some reggae to this or whatever.’ It was still fun…

“I made this place my own.” 

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

Although, it was still a struggle because I had left so much behind. A lot of history and the island, but in high school, I still did some art but nothing crazy.

Mostly I was thinking about anything other than being an architect. That’s what I wanted originally, to major in architecture. Then I took some subjects in college and I’m good at math, but physics kicked my ass.

Then I just decided to settle with graphic design. I got a degree and started working in the city for a while. Then that’s how I got introduced to photography because graphic design is almost like its stepbrother. My first camera, I got it when it had just come out, the original Canon digital rebel XT. Yeah, so I was like, God, this is an eight-megapixel camera. Oh my god, this is so cool.

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Learning the ropes

JR: That’s wild, I came in around the rebel t3.

AJT: You’re much younger. But yeah. I took a darkroom course and I wanted to take more courses but ended up not doing that. That was the only thing and some art history courses. We talked about Richard Avedon and a few other photographers out there. The moment I got my rebel I was just going nuts. I was everywhere shooting trees and leaves. I didn’t know what the hell.

JR: While you were in school, taking some of those classes. Did you feel like you were learning about photographers that looked like you? Did you see yourself in those classes at all, learning about photo history?

AJT: It was a prerequisite for my graphic design degree. I didn’t really think of it. I mean, every now and then I thought to myself, ‘Oh this is fun. I’m in a dark room. This is really fun, you know.’ Looking back at some of my work is a horrible experience. I look at an image and it’s so blurry. When I thought it was sharp.

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Remnants of an Exodus… The show

JR: Well, I’m really excited to hear how your opening for your show went? 

AJT: I had one in Portland, Oregon and I wanted to go but I was unable to attend. It was very unfortunate. I did have an artist’s talk that was pretty emotional for me because I wrote a lot. It included my upbringing, the shift in demographics, and where I was located.

It brought back a lot of nostalgic feelings as well. This is equally traumatic because with nostalgia comes trauma as well. Not only that but the beautiful moments that you remember just come with the territory. That was kind of like the highlight of the exhibit.

After that, I had them ship my pieces directly to another gallery that had contacted me while my show was still happening in Portland. My latest exhibit was displayed in an intimate setting. There was also another artist, a traditional artist who does abstract work.

My section was to the right and the director asked if I wanted to do an artist talk. I don’t find myself to be very good at those. I couldn’t say no, so I took her up on it.

JR: Do you get nervous when you have to talk in front of people? Is that what the feeling is?

AJT: Yeah, there’s some nerves. I’m an artist, I want to talk, but my skill set lies within connecting myself with another human being. This might just be my skill set. My skill set is also through photography or writing. I consider myself a street writer, and It’s not like an official term. I grew up around hip hop, reggae, and other music genres.

In terms of freestyling, I leaned back in the day, on the streets, and just wrote lyrics that carried over into my work. You could also view my book. Which is like a musical in that way. I call it a hip-hop musical in the form of photography.

How this happened, I have no clue. It just naturally happened and naturally morphed into such an amazing book. It has a little bit of everything, aspects of dystopia, hope, and so many different storylines.

If you’re someone from the African diaspora, Latino diaspora, or anything like that, you could connect to it. It’s a book that I feel can connect with almost anyone out there because it’s about love and hope. There are so many different storylines within that book. I can’t even keep up…

JR: Could someone still go to purchase your book? Is it still available?

Remnants of an Exodus… The Book

AJT: There are a few copies left on my publisher’s website which is Gnomic. I have my own copy as well. I think I had like one box left. The original storyline speaks to gentrification and that became more of a focus. Although you look at other storylines about people in the African diaspora and everything is so dark and negative.

That particular community has been depicted in that way for a very long time. Now you have artists like myself, and other artists who are now taking up the mantle and retelling our own stories.

Whether it’s in a more positive light, or mixing it up to say:

“We have strengths as well, we have weaknesses, obviously, but why not play up with the strength?”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

That is why last year, through the middle of the pandemic, I stopped photographing, and I paused to pick up another project. I really wanted to finish this project, I thought that this project needed to be seen as soon as possible. I felt that it would help people and that’s what it did. I’ve gotten emails, and messages from a lot of people saying it’s a book that they will cherish forever because it’s such a personal book. They feel like they know me through that book.

“Remnants of an Exodus is also a reflection of myself.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

I’m not only telling a story about gentrification, I’m telling a story about myself as well and the kind of person I am. There’s someone there in front of the camera and then I’m here. It’s almost as if there’s this connection or bond.

The lines are blurred between the sitter and the photographer. You can’t really explain it other than there’s this connection, how you shoot. I don’t take a lot of photos of one subject. Sometimes I have one chance and I’ll shoot it. I’ll just do one frame. Oftentimes, on average about maybe three frames

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From one photographer to another on the process

JR: Yeah, that’s interesting. Is it just a time constraint? Or a feeling at that moment? 

AJT: I think it’s a little bit of everything. Oh, also budget. I invested a whole lot in this project. It’s been on a lot of platforms, thankfully. I’m very grateful for that as well, and I’m happy with the way it came out. Regardless of whether I photograph two frames, or three frames, or seven frames.

JR: So when you’re starting a project, what is your creative process? Do you focus on a concept first, or do you just make work, and then the concept comes later?

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AJT: I’m a very deep thinker, and I don’t say that in a way to make me look good. I feel I’m always thinking and that I think too much at times. There are some things that I plan for, obviously, but there are other elements that pop up.

For example, when I think this is an opportunity and I want to photograph it. In my book, Remnants of Exodus, those images were pre-planned in terms of me knowing that I wanted to walk the streets of Spring Valley. I don’t plan on a person posing a particular way the day before. Whenever I see that person or that thing or those animals, I make the images. 

JR: You would much rather connect with people on a personal level. I love that. The book is a beautiful collection of powerful images. From what I’ve seen and I would like to see the book in person.

AJT: There are some surprises in the book. My buddy Shane Rocheleau, he wrote a beautiful piece in the back and I also wrote a short poem. I would like to give a shoutout to Jason Koxvold, who’s a brilliant creative director, designer, and publisher.

He’s also a photographer too, he does it all. We all put our brains together. I felt like my book was always about love and the idea of me inviting people who are not even of African descent. It was definitely calculated and what better way to prove that you want these stories to be out. My goal was to reach as many people as possible.

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Sticking to your beliefs as a creative

AJT: Actually, I’m a firm believer in walking the walk. I think that this is why I did it the way I did. When I was deciding who to invite to write for the book I had two people in mind. I selected Shane because I respect his work a lot and he’s one of my favorite photographers. If you ever go through the book, it feels like meditation in a sea of violent imagery.

“It’s very important to distinguish myself from other photographers. In the sense that I focus more on love and, this work can resonate with even the most violent of people.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

The work doesn’t have to garner the attention of millions. That doesn’t matter to me because I believe in it and I stay true to who I am as a photographer and a person.

JR: I think especially as black photographers, we find ourselves leaning into recreating the trauma. I noticed that a lot especially in 2020. Although thinking about your image where you have the man holding the Black Lives Matter sign.

We know what the image is referring to and talking about. We didn’t have to see the violence to understand it.

b: Absolutely, with that photograph as well, that was me looking at myself at that moment. It wasn’t even a plan. After the protest, I had two shots in mind and wanted to cover them in a non-traditional photojournalism way.

I didn’t see any violence during the protests. Though last year, a lot of images, were being branded in a more violent way. Which is very traumatic. We already know what happened before.

“Why does the news or media have to always latch on to violent imagery, especially within the black community? Why do you want to continue feeding us trauma?”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

After I tried photographing these guys you could see fear, hope, and strength. I’m a very nuanced person. So I felt like my images had to represent who I am.

When I posted it on Instagram, I didn’t post the traditional stuff first. Two days afterward, I posted this image and I photographed some women as well. I realized I made my point and then a lot of different magazines started contacting me.

Asking a few different things, like is the work published anywhere else, apart from Instagram. Then a friend of mine, from The New Yorker, got in touch with me and asked, ‘Can you do me a favor and not publish this? Because we, we want exclusive rights.’

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Don’t recreate the trauma

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AJT: I told her, this other publication wants it. I waited to find out what they wanted to do. She got back and told me that I could do it non-exclusively. They still ran it and they also hired me to photograph the protests.

I went to three days worth of protests, and there was zero violence. I was one of maybe only a few photographers that decided to do it differently this time. To not go with what the system has taught us to do. It felt really good to have my work out there and photograph what I believed in without the endless propaganda.

JR: That’s beautiful. I know during that period, aside from photographers focused on violence and negativity, there was also conversation around showing protesters and organizers. Individuals who put protests together and how that imagery could potentially harm them. If those images get published or posted and their identity wasn’t protected. Did you ever think about those types of things while you were making that work?

AJT: I saw someone that my energy took a liking to. Then I approached them and they would oblige. Sometimes I’d have just a couple minutes, sometimes it’d be several and people loved it. Remember this was in the middle of a pandemic too. It’s interesting how that whole event happened, because something happened, the fear got put aside.

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Al J. Thompson reflects on 2020

AJT: Then for the betterment of humanity, people were like, fuck it, I’m gonna go out and protest.

“I’m going to do what I believe in and stand up for what’s right.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

What happened to that beautiful person, and other men and women of color should not be happening. At the time, this is 2020. It shouldn’t be happening. How many adults and kids saw that, murder in front of so many people?

JR: Yeah that was an incredibly hard year.

AJT: I’ll tell you a lot of the work that I garnered between last year and this year. I definitely directly benefited from George Floyd’s death. That’s the irony of it and also COVID which coincided with that as well. If people hadn’t been locked up in one space, then maybe some of that wouldn’t have ensued.

I felt that I needed to burst out and show my flame at that moment. Being out there with these energetic beings, that’s how I looked at it. I knew from day one that I’d have to face my fear for me to move on.

“So I faced my fear.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

JR: In terms of making work and getting these stories out there. I think with your project I was reading about your hometown. I’m curious about what was going on there. What was the focus surrounding that work?

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Reimagining love…The realities of gentrification and redlining

AJT: If you look at the before and after, it’s straight-up black and white. No doubt, the amount of change that happened over the years is pretty dramatic, actually.

A lot of what I witnessed in Spring Valley, was a lot of people moving on. People who owned homes sold their homes to businesses mainly religious, Jewish folks. Everything’s changed and zoning laws have changed over the years as well. They wanted to build higher and have more homes, and less space. A lot of condos were built and part of the park got sold illegally to business developers by the mayor, Darden.

Darden was someone I had a run-in with when I was in high school. They sent me to the dean’s office, Darden was dean at the time. He let me off because I was never a troublemaker.

While he was running for mayor, I was actually rooting for him. I didn’t know what he was like or what was in store at the time. While that happened the moment actually he took office, he made a lot of changes. The original blueprints for the redevelopment of storefronts got changed.

Spring Valley became even more segregated. They sold a plot of land that belonged to housing development. Also, that got sold to business developers as well to build condos. They didn’t allow any person of other descent to rent their properties. It’s redlining that’s what is happening right now.

JR: Were you documenting this change as it was happening?

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Al J Thompson talks pivoting

AJT: I started documenting this in 2018. I documented it in a more traditional photojournalistic way. I would go to town halls or just go and various events, photographing families. That that was the original idea.

Originally, I was doing it in color, Matt Eich, who is still one of my favorite photographers. And so I wanted to take a page out of his book, I wanted to actually photograph the different demographics in Rockland County, which Spring Valley is located in.

I started doing that shifting the work to try and figure out how to present a story. I just kept on photographing and then I hit a dead end. Switching it up and I started to photograph in Black and white. The changes happened before that and I don’t remember when he came into office. Though I do know they happened as soon as he came.

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There was a park that I used to play soccer and basketball at. That park and everything changed. It took them months to redevelop and we couldn’t even turn on the floodlights at night anymore to play ball. The whole experience was disgusting.

I felt a lot of anger and then through the combination of this book, the images at least, I found love, hope, and other things outside of just anger, right? That morphed into something different when I actually took the time to sit down and photograph. As well as talking to people getting to know them.

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Adapting to change

JR: These are people that are experiencing the same changes, like you. Did you find that comforting, in a way? The removal of historical places that are predominantly black, or predominantly Latino, or anything of that nature. I find that sometimes the only thing that makes us feel positive energy is when negative things around us are happening.

It seems that talking to each other about it with those people often helps. When you were photographing these individuals were the conversations along those lines of finding comfort in one another?

AJT: I usually initiate those conversations, because I feel some connection with that person, too. Sometimes it is nice to have these conversations. A lot of the guys they’re lost as well, you know? I feel a lot of sadness, and that they’re in a place of loss.

“By injecting myself within that space, I was hoping that I’m in a sense injecting them with some form of hope.”

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

I’ve lived to tell those stories, and I enjoy just watching them smile, and saying I love your book. Now, because I know I’ve reached them in a way. A lot of the guys signed my books and I just thought to myself, this is for you.

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It’s all about giving back for Al J Thompson

JR: What is something that you would like to do for your community?

AJT: My book isn’t enough, you know. I wish there was a way for me to give back more. I’m always wanting to do that. I’m in the process of moving for good.

Though before I move my last wish here is to have a frickin party and invite a lot of people over. Something outdoors obviously maybe in the summer. Possibly getting the local police department involved as well. The budget needs to be there and I don’t have the budget.

JR: Maybe something for younger kids to get involved in art.

AJT: Maybe you know, it’s endless, you know, you can do a lot of different things. I would need to find out, like, budget-wise, like what can I do? How much can I afford to spend on this and now you know, and then also, like, there would be other organizations that could lend themselves to making this a success.

JR: What do you think you are going to work on next?

AJT: I have my kids and I love them. I’m taking a long break from photographing them, but I’ve been photographing my kids for years. I still don’t know, the storyline there. There are many different storylines that I can craft for sure. Being black in the suburbs has interesting moments. It’s very catchy as well, but it might be completed and I’ve been at that for a while.

I’m not planning on releasing anything of my kids for the next seven years. Then I’m photographing other projects in between other long-term projects. Also photographing nature because I love that type of work more than anything. I gravitate more towards nature and that’s when I feel at home. When I’m in the middle of the woods. Those are projects I’m thinking about.

JR: I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I really love your work and your thinking behind it.

AJT: Yeah absolutely, it’s decades of planning, and also for me, I grew up differently. I think on an esoteric level.

I just feel like the world is such a complicated place. It’s equally ugly and beautiful.

– Al J Thompson, Photojournalist

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Joana Toro is a documentary photographer whose work shows the ways in which communities neglected in the larger discourse of photography find their way into the canon.

Historically photography has played a role in undermining the stories and histories of Black and Indigenous People of color (BIPOC). Toro’s photographic practice recognizes the ways in which representation is important.

While considering the ethics of photography we take a look into projects Toro created like, Hello I am Kitty, Nasa: Ancient Warriors, and TransLATINAS Collaborative Portraits.

Toro is currently based in New York but is a Colombian native. Much of the work explores the intersecting identities of individuals across borders. As well as centering the experiences of immigrants in America, and LGBTQ individuals.

Jade Rodgers: How did you get started in photography?

Joana Toro: As a self-taught photographer from Colombia, I work with issues surrounding immigration, identity, and social justice. In 2000 I had some semesters or studies in graphic design, but I didn’t finish my career in college.

Through graphic design, I saw something in photography, and that became my first approach to the camera. Then for other reasons as well I didn’t finish my career.

I had to continue doing other things to make a living, but photography was always with me. That’s why I began to work in newspapers and magazines in Columbia for about 10 years and then made my way to the US. 

It’s not the same state of mind when you’re in your 20s or 30s. Even when you’re in your 40s, my photography also represents that experience. It was integral to change many things in my approach to social issues.

While I was in Colombia my approach was in social issues, but here in the US working as a photographer my curiosity was in a different state. My needs changed so I began freelancing, but I work more in long-term jobs now.

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Joana Toro on breaking the stereotypes to open doors for opportunities

JR: Did you find that to be a challenging transition, and how difficult was is it to find work?

JT: Yes, I think the most challenging aspect is breaking the stereotypes that sometimes Latino immigrants have in reality. Sometimes we have a beautiful way to express ourselves. No matter what kind of immigrant you are, you have to break some stereotypes and I think, for me, it was challenging to break some of those in order to have opportunities.

“Everyone also wants to be a photographer nowadays which also makes it complicated. Self-taught photographer, immigrant or not, our societies like to divide.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

I question where these stereotypes are coming from? Being a person of color, of course, has challenges in this society, no matter if you are a photographer, or architect, or whatever the case may be.

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Colombia is always on top of mind

JR: Absolutely, it is at its core systemic. It can be really difficult sometimes, and regardless of occupation, you will go through the same challenges as a person just trying to get their foot in the door.

You’ll make work that you believe is important or valid. Though I was particularly struck by the way that you are telling these stories of underrepresented people.

It’s done in such a way that it doesn’t feel clinical. Which is important and you’re coming from a place of understanding. When I looked at your work “Colombia on my Mind”, which I would love to hear you talk about, the way you describe that body of work.

Being that this is your home and a reflection of that. Also, how you let the viewer make their own choices about what to feel when they look at the work. 

JT: Yes, Colombia is on my mind. I can say that of my own work in Colombia when I was on staff as a newspaper and magazine photographer, I had to go to many places.

Meet a lot of people and see different perspectives not only in the city. Also in the countryside and so on. That opportunity gave me a better understanding of my country.

I decided to make a series of pictures that never went out in the media, for many reasons. I wanted to describe my country and how I feel in my heart. The situation in every picture is different. Although in some way they are together, not the composition, but the color, and the feeling of each picture.

I decided that I would give the viewer the discretion of interpretation because as a photographer, my main interest is what people feel when they see my work. 

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Joana Toro relies on universal feelings as a form a communication through photography

JT: When people see my pictures I am not the person to tell them what to feel. Every person is of an independent mind, and I just felt that. Sometimes Columbia is in a state of waiting, or understanding and we are always waiting for the best, but in the meanwhile, this is a situation of wonder.

“The wonder is surrounded by beauty, horror, and poetry. Every person feels something different when they approach an image and I think the only thing that I can share with the viewer is what Columbia is for me.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

Also, sometimes when you feel an emotion that can be felt anywhere regardless of place. For example, I say sadness, and sadness is a universal feeling. 

The work image to image is not related by time, some pictures are in 2012, 2010, 2009, 2000, and some are digital others are film. In this way, I see these images as a series of feelings, and about being Colombian. Sometimes your feelings are personal.

So I decided that the viewer will have control over interpretation, or what they feel. Sometimes you understand it, sometimes you feel it, or sometimes you don’t see anything that’s completely valid.

JR: Absolutely, and for me, the work struck me in the little moments between images. For example, the two children playing with the egg. Something that I never did personally but you just feel that moment.

You know it’s probably filled with joy, and then you’re transitioning to images, like the individual on the street. Who is strutting confidently through this crowd of people with this amazing outfit on? I think you did a really incredible job of playing with time and emotions as we move through the work.

JT: Even if you’ve never gone to Colombia, you do even need to know where it is on the map, or whatever. You can feel something from the image and that’s what’s important to me.

“The only reason I create photographs is to make the viewer feel something. At least something negative or positive. Nowadays, we are surrounded by so many spectacular images.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

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Creating photographs that reveal and captivate

JR: For sure, and thinking about the history of photography and the violence that has been inflicted on people of color. I would love to hear your thoughts about creating these works about indigenous people and underrepresented people. How do you go about showing that work, or if you’ve ever shown that work, in institutions that historically keep us out of the conversation?

JT: One of the main reasons I began to freelance is this necessity that I feel I have to dig deeper into the issues that I see in daily life. For example, indigenous struggles, fighting for their land, I go, take photographs and come back the next day there is another situation.

An issue is documented but the news is no longer news once it is documented. I find it very important to me to make work about these groups of people. Also, this is why I decided to finish my career as a staff photographer.

“I became independent.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

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Also, I like to create works that have something to say, in some form or another, from my perspective. I want to try to add to the conversation of the news which is always happening so fast. 

Stories that maybe there is no news coverage at all because everyone knows that these communities exist. At least that these people are struggling, but I like to imagine that my work can create new conversations about these communities and their problems that we don’t see every day in the news.

This is something that I want to believe is my purpose, to add to the conversation. Some of this for me is very obvious, and I think for many people, but maybe for the media, it is not so obvious. As part of our crisis as societies, I find that photographing underrepresented communities is very important. It’s very much a necessity for me to go there. 

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Joana Toro believes indigenous communities have a voice

JT: Also, it’s not because they don’t have a strong voice to talk about their problems, no, that isn’t the problem. These people are very strong and can speak for themselves. I feel a kind of attraction to these communities and their actions. It is also motivation for me.

I admire the community, its goals, and it’s something I want to know more about. I am so interested in understanding that strong mentality. Also, sometimes you see a headline that something is happening with immigration or the LGBT communities or Latino immigrants or whatever.

The media’s approach is to feed more stereotypes and make assumptions. I always approach these topics with an open mind and see how amazing these people are and understand why. So that’s why I love to create this type of work. It is an opportunity to make new conversations about these communities.

JR: How does the work get translated? Once you finish a body of work, say like NASA Ancient Warriors. 

JT: The NASA indigenous group is incredibly strong. Columbia is so big and they have been challenging to preserve their land. They are in a part of my country where we have a lot of mountains.

The land is very important for communication, and also a lot of fields of coca, and other stuff, right. So they have been fighting in that territory since practically the beginning of Colombia’s formation. I’m talking centuries ago, this is not something new.

That’s why I say that they are ancient warriors because they were in that challenging position for so long. As far as photographing them they are very open to outside people, like me, I approached them and documented their fight and the survival of their traditions. I was just lucky, and I also had a good relationship with them.

“It’s work that takes time because you have to build the confidence to go there.” 

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

As well as getting permission, their community expands, and we can see how they have to deal with things like the narcotics war. Things that have been my country for 60 decades or more.

The narcotics war is fairly new, but always this community has been facing the challenge to preserve their traditions, and they have been successfully doing it no matter what. I am sure that so many people have been talking about them, not only in photography, also in writings, and they always come to the same conclusion.

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A thank you note to the NASA community

JT: The NASA people are so strong and they don’t need help, they just need the government to take seriously their demands of protecting their lands. The interest of that land is superior to the government. Nowadays, we have Mexican cartels in play and it further complicates the situation.

As for them is just to label change of the always they are in a very important part of the land. They are in a strategic place on that land, and they are strong enough to not just disappear without a fight. I decided to make these images as a kind of thank you note. 

This hard spirit that these people have, is not only the NASA people, I think a lot of indigenous people around the world have this fire inside now. Therefore, you have to be respectful. These people have said, our land is not for taking, and we have to protect our people. Preserving the land to give to the new generation, is not a new innovation, they have been doing it for centuries.

JR:  That’s really beautiful. It does, listening to you talk about it, feel like you’re paying homage to the people. I found that really interesting because when I first viewed the work, I personally did not know this history.

So for me, when I look at other bodies of work that you’ve created, not only am I learning and expanding my own visual culture, I’m learning about a specific group of people’s culture. In relation to the ways, photography is taught in an academic setting we don’t get imagery like this often.

So when I look at your work, I’m seeing the way you use photography and feel connected to this mode of working.  You’ve blended creativity and activism into your work effortlessly. I’m really thankful that you shared that with me. 

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Hello, I am Kitty is a photographic reflection of identity and immigration in the United States

JR: I was also drawn to Hello Kitty, as a critique of immigration in the US and the way you describe it as a journal to find your new identity. I’m curious about that work too if you could talk about it.

JT: Yes, Hello I am Kitty is the first project I created in the US. Regarding my personal experience as a Latina immigrant, I came here as an international student of English, I had to learn the language.

When I came to America, I came with no family and needed fresh air and that was my expectation of course. Although reality gave me what I like to say the punch or feeling of being punched. When I began to work in Times Square I tried to work in other spaces without success. My English was not the best in 2011 and 2012. Since I preferred to work independently I found that working as Hello Kitty might be very easy, but then I realized that it was very difficult. 

For many years I had seen myself in a number of ways, but I began to understand this country in a peculiar way. The people who work in Times Square are mostly immigrants from Latin America and Africa. While working in the street, you are in a situation where you’re figuring out new modes of survival.

“When you go to any country around the world, you have to begin from zero in some way, because you are new to that place you don’t know the codes, the language.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

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Globally we are poor-phobic… Immigrants are not the issue

JT: In many cases, you are not a rich person. So you have to face how to make a living along the way. It’s kind of exciting, but also difficult and challenging and gives you a lot of happiness and sadness. Working on the Square gave me that and deeply. Mostly the story of that work found me and I was not prepared for them. But it took me time to understand that I was there not only to work but also to share with my camera what was going on there.

“Soon I began to see that as an immigrant you have complex identities.” 

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

Hello, I am Kitty is a reflection, because I think my old identity and the new one, made my perception of myself this new bigger one. I realized when you travel, you are the same person, but you have more experiences, and you are more diverse and more open. When I began to find myself in this job, I found it super difficult because the symbolism of the mask gives you a new identity anyway. Right?

If it’s Halloween and you put a mask on, you are that character. Though you are still you underneath. I began to see that not only in the pictures that I take but also in the meaning of immigration in the US. How we do not see immigrants as who they are, and how they look at themselves in society. I was invisible, and I began to realize, okay, what is this across the reality of undocumented peoples?

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Representation MATTERS for Joana Toro

JT: What if I begin to play with that symbolism? After years, I began to see that I was talking about something very deep about immigration in the US and how the Latina and Latino are seen.

How we begin to use words that are not related to the real complexities of the situation. How can I explain this? Taking the time to understand, and this is my interpretation.

Maybe it’s not the best one but personally, sometimes society uses words to describe situations of the world. Immigrants or immigration is a word that is criminalized to say. I think the problem is not the immigrants, the problem is that they are poor. So we as a society are allergic to the poor.

“There is a problem around poor-phobia, not immigration.”

– Joana Toro

So when we say that someone is illegal…A human being is not illegal. So the daily use of something makes it normal. But if you analyze the root of that it is much more complicated. It’s easy to say the problem is the immigrants, because when you close your eyes to see a person walking with a kid, and you see a Mexican or Latino, or people from Africa or wherever.

They come here to make homes no matter what part of the world we are talking about. Since we are in the US, we’re talking about this country but that is not to say that the US is eviler than the rest of the world. No, I mean to say that it is a global problem. I think the problem is not the immigrants, it is that they are poor.

The economical factors…

JR: The importance that we put on class is in my opinion a major factor. Which often stops people from recognizing or understanding what you’re saying. 

JT: Immigration is a very complicated issue because it covers many sides. There are monetary, economical, and patriotic factors at play. Immigration has many layers to it. My understanding is that many countries often don’t know what to do. There is so much complicated stuff happening.

“The idea of this work is to create questions more than answers.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

Also, we don’t have the answers. I think as a society, we are struggling to find a better way to do what is best for everyone. It’s important that these kinds of pictures or voices, and there are many voices around the world talking about immigration. It’s important that they have a space, so people begin to see it from a new perspective. 

It allows people the opportunity to say, you know what, maybe next time I say this, or  I’ll listen, avoid this, or just simply have respect for others. More importantly, we need to question and reflect on where we are as individuals.

Reflection is always a good way to understand the problem. Nowadays, it’s complicated because we have so many factors, but I think people are talking little by little about issues that we don’t want to. This work is just a contribution to make another question about immigration, globalization, and all that. 

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Shifting focus…

JR: What other aspects of photography are you most focused on presently? 

JT: Nowadays in my practice, I have been working with Latino immigration not only with Hello I am Kitty but also with LGBTQ Latino communities in Queens and around Europe because it’s what I live. It’s easy in some ways but very difficult in others and these stories take time. I am doing this because it’s part of my life and what I am facing sometimes.

“For many people of color, immigrants, and Latinos, what they have to face in this society is nasty stuff. It can be beautiful as well.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

It is what it is, we are in our society that is in a divide. Sometimes in your daily life, you can feel it. The best way to manage that is to go out with your camera and feel it and make it part of your work. Also, I like to work within the realms of the African diaspora, in Colombia, I focus my efforts on Colombia. My work while in the United States is centered around Latino immigration.

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Joana Toro speaks about her TransLATINAS Collaborative Portraits

JR: What ways are the Trans Latina portraits you’ve created a collaboration? How was the process of creating that body of work?

“It’s a collaborative project because the ladies who are in the photographs decide how they want to be represented in the picture.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

JT: Some women decided that they would like to be naked or generally to be in different situations. They decide what picture they want to be shown and we have a conversation about it. I am just a bridge between them and the picture that they want to have. The idea of this is just to show the community, these beautiful sisters exist in and are a part of.

I love that feeling and intimacy and I want to know more. We are women and this world struggling with the complicated aspects of patriarchy. I think about what happens when someone is born into a different body. There is a lot of work that a person has to do to feel like themselves in their own skin. I think about how, for myself, it was so easy.

I was just born and that was it. In the trans community, they have an extra challenge, and how they feel femininity is very deep. The main idea of the project is to make them feel as they are. In this way, it was a collaborative project because I listened to what they wanted.

JR: That’s a very validating experience I would assume. You can definitely see that these women are so confident when they’re photographing with you.

I really love that as a way of working because there is a strain sometimes between, especially in the industry, more so in fashion. Where the model and the photographer, there’s a power dynamic at play. Although here you’re relinquishing that power and giving it back to the women in these images.

JT: That’s a cool way to see it. Also, my relationships with these women have been growing for years. Which is also an ingredient that makes the pictures. It’s not only for the picture, and I don’t see you anymore. It is because I see them in other situations during the years.

“These portraits are just parentheses in their personal lives and also in mine.”

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

So you can feel a kind of intimacy because we met many times before the portraits.

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A snippet from TransLATINAS Collaborative Portraits by Joana Toro

She tells of her childhood in Mexico. At the age of 12, she began to take hormones in secret to transform her body. At 17, she left home to live in Mexico City where she had a difficult time.

Lesly then decided to migrate to the USA to escape a life of sexual harassment, police abuse, and a disapproving family atmosphere. According to the Translatina Coalition report, many Trans Latinx migrate to the USA in search of better social and economic opportunities.

Many leave because they fear for their lives or are unable to make a living in their country of birth. Ninety-nine percent of the participants in this study reported having better opportunities in the USA than in their country of origin. Today Lesly is a co-founder of the first Trans-owned co-op and an independent worker.

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Joana Toro speaks to the next generation, of young documentary photographers

JR: I love that you’re building those relationships outside of the photos. That’s a very beautiful model of image making. Do you have any advice for young photographers starting out who want to make documentary work?

JT: That’s a difficult question. I can recommend passion and patience. It is easy when you are young. Documentary work takes a lot of time. Sometimes it won’t feel like the right moment but then you have to wait. Maybe you succeed, but then maybe receive rejection now and again.

It takes a lot of patience with a story but also you must have the passion to not give up. It can be very difficult. When you are knocking on doors, and no one answers. Also, as a freelance photographer, we send emails constantly and oftentimes do not receive a response.

“You have to keep going and follow your beliefs. Understand why you are doing this, and follow that passion strongly.” 

– Joana Toro, Documentary Photographer

Some days you wake up with strength, and other days you may not. You have to be passionate about that as well, you’ll have to manage yourself, the story, and all the things life will throw at you. You have to be so personal, not only with others but also with yourself. If you want money, maybe this is not the best way. Find what works for you. 

JR: Patience and passion. Absolutely. What projects are you working on? Or do you hope to create in the future? 

JT: Yes, I am working in the African diaspora. I began to feel a curiosity about the African diaspora and the importance of that heritage in my country.

Trying to find a way to go deeper into that amazing and huge heritage Africa gave us as a country. I am also working on an issue that I am not sure what to call it yet.

I tried to go to a place in Colombia that is an important place not only for historic issues but also a place for Black people who have a heritage from Africa. How do these people in this town see themselves and preserve their culture?

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JR: I look forward to seeing this intersection of identities and culture through your perspective. Thank you so much.

Sasha Stavila is a Seattle, Washington photographer who has roots in New York City.

Stavila is a bicoastal creative who understands the importance of diversifying your portfolio and maintaining your creative options. As a photographer, creative director, and producer Stavila takes the challenge head-on being an all-around creative.

Currently working and living in Seattle, Stavila took the time to talk with us about managing creative pursuits, NFTs, film photography, and the importance of finding your photographic voice.

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Where photography meets IT, Sasha Stavila is at the center of it all creating beautiful fashion-inspired portraits, minting and selling his personal work, and incorporating his own personal touch through creative storyboarding.

He brings many talents to the table but this multifaceted creative at his core pushes the envelope in developing work.

Who is Sasha Stavila the Photographer?

SS: My name is Sasha Stavila. I’m originally from Seattle, Washington. I lived in New York for three years. And a lot of my artistry was focused in that area, just building myself as a photographer, creative director, and producer.

JR: I’m glad that you mentioned that. I’ve noticed that your creative process doesn’t only consist of photography, can you talk about what it’s like to be a creative director, producer, and photographer? 

SS: I love the role of directing a shoot from the beginning to end, whether it’s starting on a storyboard, creating something out of nothing, and trying to see if a concept can be executed. I love the visual process of going on Pinterest to find some inspiration.

Depending on who I pitch the shoot to, I’ll formalize it into a storyboard and just tell them that idea. So for example, I did the same thing when I was working with Byas & Leon.

I had the idea of doing a 60s or 70s, inspired shoot. I wanted to make sure that I presented the storyboard to them right. They were really impressed with it. Then from there, it was about planning the shoot and assembling the team. Making sure that the vision could become a reality.

I think, as a photographer, you should definitely wear many hats for your own success.

Sasha Stavila

Pushing and challenging yourself to greater heights, so to speak. I really love that role, being a creative director and a producer. I like the little details of just, you know, trying to manage everything at once.

JR: It definitely shows, when looking at that work. That shoot for Byas and Leon, the hair, your color story everything was put together beautifully. I was very struck by those images. I’m curious, how did the casting for that come about, were you in charge of that as well?

SS: Yeah, so I was in charge of casting for sure. I already had a model in mind. I was talking to Bethany about possibly doing a shoot together, Bethany being the model. She was totally down for it. Then I just had to fill the other role.

I found Denae, who was really thrilled about the idea when I’d reached out to her about it. Bethany and Denae being on the shoot together were fantastic. I couldn’t have asked for better models, as well as just the team overall. I’m super grateful to Harvey, the Co-Owner of Byas & Leon for just helping facilitate it all. I couldn’t have done it without him and his team of experts.

Stavila speaks on the importance of community amongst creatives

JR: Your work heavily centers, Black people, more specifically Black women. Could you give more context to that choice as an artist? What is your connection to the Black community? 

SS: Absolutely. Well, it’s easy for me to say that I think Black is beautiful. Especially Black women, too.

I love the artistry and the resilience, that Black people show. It really inspires my own work as well.

Sasha Stavila

While living in Brooklyn I had the opportunity to be surrounded by so many Black creatives. Like for example, Photodom, I always hit them up when they first opened.

I started out as a customer but over time, I got to know all the people that worked there and I think it’s safe to say they really liked me and I loved them too. I always hung with them at their office. 

Though I say all that to say, there’s a big sense of community, especially with Black artists. It’s something that I really resonate with strongly. Without Black artists, I would not be the artist, or particularly the photographer that I am currently.

I owe them so much for that. I’ve always found ways to give artists that I know opportunities to be on shoots. Or I’ll show them a casting call. If there’s anybody that wants to do a photoshoot and has a model in mind, then I always try to think of the best models that I know. 

JR: That’s really important to me as well. Having a community of creators that you can always go back to or work with is important.

SS: Yeah, shout out Rodra, Cyan, and DOM.

JR: Shoutout Suede too. Also, I want to state that the way you photograph Black women, it’s so careful. You can tell that you really know these people and your proximity to them is apparent in the work.

SS: I do want to note that it’s so important when photographing Black people that you get everything right, in terms of the lighting. I know, some photographers out there, not personally, but whenever they are working with people with a dark complexion the lighting is off. Or the coloring in post-production is off. I always do my best to make sure that they are represented as accurately as possible, especially with skin.

JR: Yeah, that is incredibly important. That’s something that I feel everyone should make sure they’re doing or at least noticing. Especially when working with Black artists or Black models. 

For bicoastal creatives… How to maintain

JR: Also, I was really interested in the fact that you work on the East Coast and West Coast. How do you maintain your presence in both places?

SS: Yes, so I’ve only just started doing that recently. I’m still thinking about it right now. Currently, I’m in Seattle, Washington until I can move to Los Angeles. I’m just trying to stack up and, find a job that’s sustainable.

I think the way that I maintain my presence on the East Coast is through social media. I interact with Instagram a lot and still connect with all my friends and artists back home.

“I’m very thankful for that, that I still have that connection.”

It’s not like I’ve been forgotten about and I try to, whenever I get the opportunity, fly out to New York as soon as I can. I did that a couple of weeks ago for three shoots. I really enjoyed my time there even if it was so short.

My goal long term is to establish a presence in the West Coast, particularly Los Angeles while also maintaining my East Coast presence. So that I can just go anywhere for opportunities or work with some amazing artists.

JR: That’s really amazing to see. I love that way, as artists, we find places to root ourselves, but then we find ways to branch out.

SS: I will say that’s why I love remote work so much. It has allowed people to have that flexibility. I’m personally trying to find remote work right now so that I can make that possible. 

JR: Absolutely, I definitely feel the same especially after the pandemic. A lot of us have had to go digital.

SS: I think it was absolutely necessary for a lot of companies particularly in the enterprise. To realize that remote work is possible. That you should give your employees flexibility. A little bit about myself, I also have a background in information technology.

I graduated with a computer science degree. I’m actually trying to find work in that field again, a contract or maybe in program management. So that I can use that to fund my artistry and also my business as a creative director and photographer.

JR: That is incredibly smart. Being able to fund yourself is a smart way to make creative work possible. In that regard, what personal projects are you currently working on?

SS: I am trying to find models to work with while I’m in Seattle. No big projects in particular. I do want to play around with some lighting effects. You may have seen, my last photoset with Veronika Collins on Instagram. She has this red light shining on her face. I really want to play with more lighting like that, especially when using Cinestill film

From one film enthusiast to another

JR: I noticed that you specialize in film photography, what aspects of film photography drew you in?

“I love film…”

– Sasha Stavila

SS: I think it offers a very unique look to your final images. It really shows because a lot of creatives that I know are diving into film now and using that as their main look and artistry. I think it’s amazing to see how much the film photography community has grown over the years.

Also, it kind of sucks, well, no, it doesn’t suck that communities growing. Though the prices of film, as well, as cameras are increasing, naturally. Kodak just recently announced that they’re going to increase their prices by 20% across the board.

What does that leave me with? Not just with myself, but a lot of other creatives that buy film in order to make art. It’s an unfortunate situation. I really hope that it encourages other film companies, or if there are any out there to create more films, not just Kodak. In order for film photographers like myself to have options because Kodak is expensive in general.

In terms of the processing, and also, if you don’t have a scanner, then you are paying the lab for scanning and that can really add up. So you know, there have to be other options.

JR: In terms of other companies creating film, I’ve seen some of those smaller businesses like BKIFI or Street Candy. You can find those on Photodom’s website as well. They’re often super fun and creative film stocks. Adding overlays, and all sorts of effects for younger photographers to try out. Though it is hard to pay for film, and processing, etc. 

I’m also wondering because I know you said you go to Photodom when you’re here in NY. While you’re on the West Coast, what do you do about scanning and processing?

SS: Scanning, I actually have my own flatbed scanner. That way I eliminate the cost of paying the photo lab for scans. I actually have a camera shop that I go to in my neighborhood called Kenmore camera.

It’s a 10-minute walk from here. It’s super convenient. They do a really good job of processing the film for me. With that said, I actually really want to process my own film. When I was going to Photodom a bunch, I learned from my buddy Suede, how to process my own film by hand. Thanks to him, I have that knowledge now.

I’m able to use C-41 and I even delve a little bit in black and white too. I think color film is a lot easier in my opinion. So I just have to make that initial investment of buying all the chemicals and the tools to get that started.

JR: There is a mono bath that Cinestill makes, I can send the link to that if you like. It’s an inexpensive option for processing B&W film. You could test it out, it’s just a one-step process to develop. It’s really fun and I use it when I can’t afford to go to the lab.

Check out Cinestills mono bath here.

SS: Yeah, that’s awesome. Please send me that link. I’d love to check it out.

Sasha talks NFTs and minting your photos

JR: Since you mentioned your background in IT, how do you feel about showing your work offline and online? Once you complete a project are you thinking about the ways in which your work can exist offline? Or do you prefer an online presentation?

SS: For the most part, I do go to online presentations. I also think of ways in which I can benefit from that work if I were trying to show it in a physical space. I really like manifesting that one day I will find a gallery that will feature some of my best work.

If people want to buy those prints, I will have that option for them to buy them. I want that to happen someday. It’s something that I’ve been thinking about a lot. Also, I’ve actually been exploring NFTs. 

I’ve been using Voice.com to mint some of my work on there for people to buy if they want. I sold two NFTs a couple of weeks ago. The dude that bought it is actually like a really renowned photographer, in Great Britain.

He’s actually, I think he’s the first black photographer to photograph a cover for British Vogue. Misan Harriman. I was really surprised when he bought those two pieces. I’m super grateful. It showed me the potential for NFTs for artists.

It’s a space that everybody should explore, especially if you’re a photographer. I learned when I was trying to sell prints from my website, that I was not really getting traffic, and prints art prints in general, are very hard to sell.

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Especially depending on the photo, if it’s a portrait of a random person, it might not be so easy to sell. To the buyer, it’s maybe, well, what am I doing with this picture? With NFTs that’s different because the focus is on digital ownership and having that forever. As well as the potential for the value to increase over time from that photo if, say, your profile as an artist really raises over the years. 

I’ve been trying to explore that space for myself. I’m also exploring other ways that I can monetize from my artistry. I have a couple of ideas floating in the air, really want to print my own T-shirts someday with some of my work. I just have to figure out the logistics of that.

JR: Thinking about your work and other forms that it can exist in is really amazing. Also, the ways it can benefit you or benefit the buyer. Also, I feel like you just taught me something honestly, because I’ve heard about NFTs but haven’t really delved into it yet.

A few people were trying to teach me about that. They talked about it with me a little and I’m glad that you brought that up. A lot of artists are considering that as an option.

SS: Absolutely. I think my advice for that is, don’t think too much about what NFTs are. It’s important to understand it. I think getting in on the ground floor so to speak, and just trying it out for yourself is a very beneficial way of understanding what NFTs are.

“You can focus on the abstract and fear about it, but once you actually do it for yourself, then you understand.”

– Sasha Savila

Sasha Stavila dishes more advice

JR: Thank you. That is great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to share about your photography? Or your creative directing. Maybe even your process when thinking about conceptualizing personal projects?

SS: In terms of process, I find a lot of inspiration just on Instagram alone. What other artists are doing and how they push the envelope. I always try to figure out a way that I can capture something similar to that.  While also making it my own, I don’t want to just blatantly copy what another photographer has done.

“Though I think, as an artist, we have a certain responsibility to pay homage to the other artists that inspire us.”

– Sasha Stavila

Stealing another artist’s identity is something that’s not cool in my book. So I always try to find a way to innovate my own work. Trying to make it my own. While it’s still unique in my eyes.

JR: We see so much imagery all the time, that it’s kind of even sometimes hard to not just be inspired by other artists. Right? Recognizing that fact is important when referencing work.

SS: Absolutely. I should clarify, it’s not to say that trying to mimic a photographic style is wrong, especially if you’re a beginner photographer. When you’re starting out, please definitely, try to copy as much as possible. I think it’s important for a beginner photographer to understand what your strengths are.

What you ultimately want to go for and getting a reference from other artists is a great starting point. You’re just beginning. It’s what I did, starting out as a beginner photographer. You know, if you’re a beginner out there, it’s okay to copy for a little bit from some of your favorite artists.

Over time, the hope is that it’ll eventually evolve into your own work. You’ll find a way to create that image in a unique light. That is you.

JR: How long have you been photographing?

SS: I’ve been photographing, since let’s see, 2017. And I started out like, anybody does, I took pictures of everything. I actually started on digital-first. I tried to explore that space, to see what drew me. Eventually, I found that I really loved photographing people. So I just photographed more and more of my friends.

When I moved to New York, I tried to explore the model space. I reached out to individuals that I thought would be willing to be photographed as a collaboration. Then eventually, I found my niche. Along the way, I got inspired to get into film photography, because of one of my best friends Alex. She had a Canon SLR. I really wanted to try that look for myself, to see what it was like.

Then I fell in love with film over time, and now I’m a portrait photographer, with a focus on fashion. As well as trying to explore other things. I really want to get into focusing on music artists. There are so many fire musicians.

“I’m manifesting that one day I’ll do a portrait series with James Blake because he’s one of my favorite artists.”

– Sasha Stavila

JR: Yes, that would be so amazing. I can see that for you so I’m manifesting it with you.

SS: Thank you so much, I appreciate that.

JR: Also, I can see your fashion influence, and your portraits have a warmth to them. Even images from your portfolio with these pastel colors. You have an incredible eye.  I really do appreciate you taking the time to talk with me I hope that we speak again in the future.

SS: Yeah, absolutely. I wish you the same. I just want to say thank you again, so much for the opportunity. 

Misfit Marti is a DC musician, singer/songwriter, opened for Kari Faux at SOB’s on September 23.

I had the opportunity to speak with her after her set. We discussed the transition from model to musician and the DMV creative scene on the rise.

We also discussed, her values when it comes to creating visual content. It’s important that whatever she creates aligns with her identity as a biracial woman.

Misfit Marti is an incredible creative whose music is soulful and unique. Watching her open for Kari Faux was amazing. They are both incredible performers and have a vibrant presence off and on the stage.

How do DMV artists stay connected?

Misfit Marti: I like these types of interviews. I prefer in-person. I feel like it just gives a certain type of energy that you don’t get through email. You look so familiar.

Jade: I know Jada, maybe we’ve crossed paths through her.

MM: Yeah, Jada that’s my homegirl!

Jade: I was gonna say that earlier when I came down to photograph. I didn’t want to be fucking weird.

MM: Nah that’s not weird, DMV shit!

Jade: I used to stay at Street Meets so maybe you’ve seen me around.

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MM: Okay, word!

Jade: I actually wanted you to talk about that. A lot of DC artists are coming up right now!

MM: Yeah, yeah, they are.

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Being a D.C. artist do you feel like you have to do justice to the art scene back home? I feel like a lot of people think the art community in D.C is not as vibrant as other places.

MM: Well, I’ve been in and out of DC since 2010. I was in New York for five years, the beginning of the last decade, and I lived in LA and London.

I’ve traveled but I’ve always come back home, and I don’t think about bringing things back to DC because DC already has it.

– Misfit Marti

We are an asset to everywhere else I’ve ever gone I have added to their community. I’ve added to their sauce like DC is so eclectic and so versatile and we are one of the original like pro-black, pro alt black, and all of the things that fall in between. In all of those categories, I don’t feel like I need to bring anything back.

Jade: I hear the opposite all the time. I think a lot of people from where we’re from don’t view it that way.

How did Misfit Marti bridge the gap within the underground scene?

MM: Well, I also used to work for Bombay Knox, hosting, and we brought a lot of artists to DC trying to bridge the gap of the underground rap scene. Between other underground rap spaces, in that time, I realized what DC needed, was connections.

We have those now. We have connections to New York. We have connections to LA. We have connections from Atlanta to Miami and Houston… To wherever the f*ck any of us want to go.

“I think any artist who says ‘that it is hard to maneuver hasn’t figured out their lane yet. Once you know that, then everything falls in place no matter where you go.”

– Misfit Marti

I remember the beginning of the decade being from DC was a joke. In 2010 I moved to New York and everyone laughed at me. Now I’m coming back and it’s ‘oh DC this…DC that.’ I’m like yeah, RESPECT, period.

It’s because people like me and other pioneers went forward and spread our seeds so I don’t think that DC artists don’t feel that love in other cities. We get mad love and if you’re not getting that love then you haven’t figured out how to network and maneuver yet. That’s not anybody’s problem but your own.

Misfit Marti the multifaceted musician

Jade: Also, I noticed that you were modeling before this. I was very curious about what that transition was like going from modeling to making music. Did people make you feel out of place?

MM: Oh, I was definitely out of place I moved to LA to make music. I was in New York and I’ll never forget someone who told me to stick to the things that you know, you are a nightlife personality you got this hosting gig in the bag.

I emceed and hosted a lot of parties in DC and in New York before I started making music. It started with Keith Charles from Awful Records. Actually way back in the day, now he’s just known as Keith Charles Spacebar. Back then he was a part of Awful Records and he’s one of the first two people. He and Denzel Curry really pushed me to make music.

Jade: What year was that in?

MM: From 2014 to 2015, I could not sing girl, to save my life! I could not sing, but I had an idea. They were very supportive but no one else was supportive. I moved to LA to start recording because no one here would fuck with me. That was in 2015 when I moved to LA and now it’s 2021.

I’m just now staking a claim as like an actual musician. Getting booked for shows doing things like SOB’s and you know, having features on Dazed and i-D.

“Things take time when you rebrand yourself. When you like completely jump off the bandwagon from what you were doing before those things take a lot of time and I learned patience. Patience with my music most definitely. It was giving, If you love it, you’ll wait for it.”

– Misfit Marti

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Jade: Yes, I completely agree with that. I don’t know if you heard me earlier, but I was saying that I was a computer science major. I had taken the leap to like, come here and be a photographer, and try my hand at this.

When I’m back home I’m freelancing. Being here in New York is completely different. This is the second opportunity I’ve had that I’m kind of, like, excited about. I feel like you are embodying some of the things that I kind of imagined it would be like moving out here.

“Yeah, welcome. It’s a hard city, but it’s not hard when you believe in yourself…”

– Misfit Marti

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Misfit or vampire songstress?

Jade: So where did your passion for songwriting stem from?

MM: I’ve been writing music since like, first grade, no lie. The moment I learned how to write I was writing songs. I didn’t forget that song by 3 Doors down [mimics chords].

I remember, having the guitar chords in my head and, and carrying them around and being like, they stole from me! Maybe I had to be five or six years old. I wanted to be in a rock band. And you know, I was also very heavy in the gogo scene.

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I’ve been writing poetry my whole life and I think that music has always been there. It was just a matter of honing in on it, you know? So like, I wrote my very first song, at seven years old, and it was called, “She Hates My Guts.” And it was an ode to my ex-best friend who hated me.

Jade: Would you ever make that? As an actual track?

MM: Child no! That song is terrible. I made it just for fun, it was terribly written. That’s the thing.

“I kept writing poems and then when I started writing songs, I started writing them as therapy. You know, like, I couldn’t afford therapy.”

– Misfit Marti

I remember the very first thing I wrote: [singing] It’s such a damn shame that you don’t love me? And I try so hard now to give you my all. But you don’t love me? And baby I know this is such a damn shame. Ah, I’m yo-yours. I’m yours. I wrote that on the train coming from the hospital.

Jade: That was beautiful, you’re amazing.

MM: Thank you. I think most of my songwriting comes from my own personal experiences. When I’m very happy, and life is very great. It’s very hard for me to make music, I have to experience life and have to experience some type of hardship.

I have to experience some type of confusion, my music thrives off of that, and that’s, you know, to each its own.

“I can write whatever but music for me is a very intimate, very healing process.”

– Misfit Marti

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Jade: You can definitely hear it like when you’re singing, it’s like, I don’t know what it is. Reminds me of those songs, that just take you, back to when you were young? You feel like you are in a church type of setting. I don’t know, it’s was really really great watching your performance.

MM: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I love aunty in the church. That’s what I’m always trying to give!

Misfit Marti on finding identity and understanding

Jade: Speaking of that, I saw that you made a video that called back to Black portraiture in the 1800s. I’m really, really a big fan of Black history and I’m a photography major. So I wanted to speak about your relationship to history and why that representation is so important in your work, or in general?

MM: I’m biracial… I have a white father. But my Black family who I grew up with, who I’m very close with, my mother specifically, has been in DC since the 1700s.

And there’s a street named after a great uncle of mine. As well as a famous barbershop named after a great grandfather of mine, you know, I think about black excellence in DC and what that meant “Chocolate city” and before gentrification, like imagine now but the 1900s.

How rich and beautiful that must have been… I think that being a DC native, I wanted to push that narrative of beautiful black essence. I’m just a sucker for history. I’ve always been a history nerd.

I think with the video for “Easy” I really just wanted to show the beauty of, black love throughout the ages. We don’t get portrayed like that. While blackness is angry, blackness is darkness, blackness is violence. Our blackness is also light and love and giving honesty and purity and transformation. It’s all those things. We are such-. I can’t think what the word would be, multifaceted.

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Yes, very eclectic people. And I just wanted to show a softer side of that because we don’t get shown a lot of that now especially with this craze, the 90s, and the 80s and the crack era and all that. I was born in ’92. My father was locked up the day after I was born, from crack, and I don’t glorify that shit.

I don’t think that that’s what should be glorified in black culture. Thug and I don’t want to say “Thug.” I hate that fucking word.

“I don’t want to portray the darkness of blackness, it’s important to be shared but we all don’t have to share that story. I’d rather share the beauty of blackness and that’s what I choose to do.”

– Misfit Marti

Jade: I was so curious about your referencing of these early images of black people and like how we took this medium that was really inaccessible to us.

MM: Yeah, only the elite and I think about that too. When I think about capitalism and the economy. I think about black excellence, where the standard is Beyonce and Jay-Z’s, but being a billionaire or a millionaire is not sustainable.

It’s not ethical, and those who suffer are black people. People save up so they can look regal and take a photo that would last forever because those photos were important back then. They are not important now.

They come and they go but capturing those moments was the most important thing of black life because it was very rare that anybody cared about what the f*ck we were doing.

So even if it was for the rich elite blacks or for those who saved up their life savings to do it. Either way, I think that it’s a beautiful thing. Definitely and they should be celebrated. I think they should be celebrated and that’s what I wanted to do.

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What was it like opening for Kari Faux

Jade: What was the experience like tonight performing?

MM: Oh! nerve-racking, I’m so nervous before shows. I feel very good now but like oh my fucking god, I am a fucking wreck all day. I thought I was gonna throw up.

Went to a job interview today and then they like gifted us food. I ate the food It was delicious. But then I was like I’m gonna throw it up. I like got home tried to meditate couldn’t meditate. I was really freaking out. Um very uncomfortable.

“I’m very serious about my art. And it’s very personal to me. Everything that I’ve written is a truthful experience of mine and to be vulnerable.”

– Misfit Marti

When I have this whole Misfit Marti persona of like, you know, the girl with the safety pin in her nose. People like don’t remember me or this very, like hard alternative black girl who’s very strong, and the music is very soft. It’s very hard to let your guard down and be soft in front of strangers. When the whole world has told you not to ever do that, especially as a black woman. So I be freaking out.

Jade: You did so amazing though.

MM: Once I get on stage like you know, everything is everything. And that’s just what it is. I love performing. I hate it all the way up until I get on stage.

Jade: I think that’s how I feel when I’m photographing. Until I’m actually in it. I’m nervous. I was nervous to come down earlier to talk to you. Now I’m like, Oh my god this woman is amazing.

MM: Yeah, no, no actually like, please don’t ever be nervous with artists. If artists are rude to you then f*ck them because we are humans. This is human interaction. It shouldn’t be anything more than that. You’re not doing me a favor by talking to me and I’m not doing you a favor by talking to you. This is an honest interaction and that’s what it should be.

Jade: That’s beautiful, thank you for that.

MM: You’re welcome.

Marti leaves us with something to live by

Jade: What advice would you give someone in trying to make their way onto the music scene?

“Patience! Things can take five to eight years to pop, don’t let age factor in…”

– Misfit Marti

Jade: Okay!

MM: Yeah, you know, black don’t crack, come on baby! But I’m 29 years old, and I didn’t start making music until 25. I’m just now getting here. Don’t feel rushed. Take your time. Be honest, be honest with yourself, about your music, be honest with yourself about why you want to do it. Because if you want to do it to get out of your situation, to like better your life or anything like that, that’s cool.

And I’m not gonna judge you for that. And no one should ever judge you for that. But you got to do this because nothing else feels good. If you feel like you cannot live unless you create music, and you share it with the world, then do it. Cuz that’s the only thing that’s going to keep you going. This world is a hard one, you got to have a hard backbone. And I think that like unless you truly love this, don’t do it.

You have got to want this, you got to want this more than being alive. You gotta want this more than you want a better relationship with your parents more than you want to be in love more than having children, you gotta want this more than any of that. And those things can happen, of course, because like life is multifaceted.

“You got to be willing to sacrifice everything to potentially gain nothing.”

– Misfit Marti

And I think that that’s what people need to come to terms with. You could do all this and end up with nothing. I don’t know if that’s good advice.

Jade: It actually is because a lot of people don’t want to face the reality that sometimes the thing that you want and desire the most could still slap you in your face. Yeah, and you need to be prepared for that. You prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. Yes! So that was very valid advice.

MM: Thank you.

Jade: I don’t want to even make music but I feel that I can apply that to anything. Alright, so the last thing, what can we expect from you in the future?

MM: I’m dropping an album or an EP, we don’t know what it is exactly. But it’s a project that’s called A Rose with Root Rot. It’s coming out early next year. It’s my baby I’ve been working on for five years. I think it’s finally come together. It’s a beautiful project that I think everyone would love.

I think you expect more from me being more social on social media, I really want to connect more with my fans. So I’m going to make an effort to do that.

Anyone knows what I was maybe short films, maybe major film, maybe TV placements, who knows I’m open to any and everything. But right now, you can expect this project from me and I’m also doing creative direction. And so I’ve done a couple of music videos that are coming out soon for some really cool artists, local artists, and I’m very, very proud to be working on those.

Jade: That’s awesome, thank you so much looking forward to everything!

MM: Yeah, of course!

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Follow your heart

While talking to Misfit Marti I think I learned a lot from the DC artist. It’s really dope meeting musicians who are unapologetic. Pushing to go after their dreams but also putting in the work to get things done.

It’s never easy but worth the effort. If there’s anyone you should be looking out for it’s Marti! She is creating, and advocating, and encompassing all her passions into her career. That multifaceted way of thinking and creating is important and I hope we cross paths again.